State of Mistweavers as of 12/4/2012

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100 Blood Elf Monk
17985
I'm heading to bed for tonight. I only ask that anyone who contributes to this discussion decides to keep it civil. There are a lot of good players here with a lot of valuable feedback and ideas.

Keep it on topic.
90 Pandaren Monk
HC
9450
I'm 100% with you rain, and honestly for 10H mistweavers its apparent that these nerfs hurt them more.

They can't even use chi-burst as effectively due to the lack of stacking or amount of people to hit, and are forced into an even more inefficient fistweaving.

You would think uplift would be amazing for 10m, but the damage distribution is extremely iffy so you dont just get lucky and expect peoplet to be taking damage who have RM, when you spend more time using soothing mists and the lot.

Uplift needs to be better than sck; I can't imagine why a chi generator would be a better heal than a chi spender.

Honestly... the Renewing mist spreading change was more than a good enough start to toning down 25m mistweavers. Maybe higher costs, but not as massive as they were.
Edited by Advanced on 12/4/2012 10:27 PM PST
90 Tauren Druid
10560
So basically MW is on level with the other healing specs in this category, except maybe Disc?


A lot of guilds were not stacking Mistweavers excessively, my guild included. I was and am the only mistweaver we've really had for progression. Plenty of other guilds have only used one as well. The most I've seen a guild use is two, which isn't extraordinary.

This is about far more than just numbers. This is about functionality and the place they're trying to take the class. They removed a lot of functionality with these nerfs. The numbers are still there, albeit less than impressive. We're probably on par with druids on average, give or take a placement depending on how good your disc priests are.

Our CD's have never been worth much, and our single target healing has never been impressive. Our one impressive feat was our AOE healing which, even now, is not very controlled for the most part and is difficult to achieve reliably, especially if it's a spread fight where you can't chi burst \ sck your raid.

I don't want to turn this into a class versus class discussion, however. This is entirely to discuss how the class feels compared to what it was sold as, because as it stands, monks of this week are a completely new class compared to monks of two weeks ago.


If you feel that MW is a problem because you're essentially having to relearn the class, then I can how that might be a problem. That's a separate issue from the major conclusion of your original post, which is that there is no incentive for 25 man guilds bring MWs (and also a separate issue from the snippet I was quoting).

I was using the druid example to challenge that notion- there are several things MWs can do that are relatively unique, which I listed out, on top of still having competitive and often better than average numbers on most fights (which is, after all, the primary function of a healer). It seems that, except for Spirit Shell, other healer-specific CDs are often being overvalued by Mistweavers. If you claim that MWs are bringing nothing to the table because other classes have tools that are better than what they have, then that's going to naturally invite a discussion about what exactly those other guys are bringing that you aren't as a MW. Otherwise, you've just assumed the critical fact that we're trying to figure out in the first place- that every other spec does indeed bring enough heals and largely better CDs over MWs to the point that MWs have no place in 25H progression, and those CDs were necessary or very important for progression while a MW's slightly weaker CDs and above average healing were not suitable.

If you simply want to assume that MW is not competitive enough and go ahead with coming up with various ideas, then that's fine, I suppose. But I think you still need to lay the groundwork of your case, and just feeling like you have to put more effort into mastering MW doesn't seem like a good reason. I say this because this thread seems designed to catch the developers' eyes and help them with MW, but it's skipping a critical step that I see GC ask about all the time when people claim their class, whether DPS, healer, or tank, needs work and start tossing out ideas (e.g. "Who is stronger than you, and why?" "Where's the data and/or analysis that proves this?"). Often, those people don't have good answers, or neglect to reply, and nothing comes of it.
Edited by Pennoyer on 12/4/2012 10:58 PM PST
100 Goblin Shaman
15275
12/04/2012 10:13 PMPosted by Pennoyer
How is bringing a MW to a 25 man raid worse than, say, bringing a druid (keeping in mind that if you really needed Stampeding Roar/Symbiosis, you can get that from a boomkin/feral/guardian druid, of which there are enough in 25 man raids). Is a MW's stronger overall healing, relatively strong healer DPS, Life Coocoon, and Revival somehow not a good incentive to bring them to raids anymore? I can see a druid being more appealing than a mistweaver on an add/CC fight, but not as an overall choice.


Resto druid is a poor example. They're currently hurting about as much as mistweavers bringing similar hps with different utility, and the playstyle Mist describes in his post is somewhat similar to how resto druids are playing right now (albeit for different reasons). Compared to resto druid, mistweaver doesn't seem too bad. It's when you compare it to the other 4 healing specs that you begin to wonder why you would bring a MW to a 25m raid, let alone a 10m.

12/04/2012 10:13 PMPosted by Pennoyer
It seems like the nerfs did not disincentivize bringing MWs to 25s altogether. It just made it less appealing to bring 2-3 while the rest of your raid served as CD bots to support the MWs. It sucks now that guilds may have to transition to using only using 1 MW after having spent the first 2 months gearing them up, but I don't know if that should be relevant when it comes to balancing classes. Also, as we all know, discs are out of control. I'm sure they're aware of it and there will be more for monks to do when they're fixed.


I'll be honest, if I was a raid leader and had the choice of bringing a mistweaver or another healing spec to a fight, and the name of that fight wasn't Garalon or Will of the Emperor, I would bring the other healing spec. Now the situation isn't that grim, but if nothing changes by the time 5.2 rolls around, I foresee a lot of guilds who have this option to make the same decision I would.

12/04/2012 10:28 PMPosted by Pennoyer
If you feel that MW is a problem because you're essentially having to relearn the class, then I can how that might be a problem. That's a separate issue from the major conclusion of your original post, which is that there is no incentive for 25 man guilds bring MWs (and also a separate issue from the snippet I was quoting).


Both issues are relevant to discussion, although in different ways. The first issue is valid because it's shoehorning a class into a style of play who is supposed to have options in their style of play. The second is valid because compared to non-resto druids there really is very little incentive to bring a mistweaver.

I was using the druid example to challenge that notion- there are several things MWs can do that are relatively unique, which I listed out, on top of still having competitive and often better than average numbers on most fights (which is, after all, the primary function of a healer). It seems that, except for Spirit Shell, the CDs the other healers are often being overvalued by Mistweavers. If you claim that MWs are bringing nothing to the table because other classes have tools that are better than what they have, then that's going to naturally invite a discussion about what exactly those other guys are bringing that you aren't as a MW. Otherwise, you've just assumed the critical fact that we're trying to figure out in the first place- that every other spec does indeed bring enough heals and largely better CDs over MWs to the point that MWs have no place in 25H progression.


Anyone who is claiming mistweavers have no utility or unique tools is a fool. That doesn't mean their tools are worth more in value than classes who can pull higher hps in more significant situations, or have actual unique raid utility that another spec can't replicate. What Mist and other high-end mistweavers are claiming isn't a misguided notion. It's a valid concern that should be addressed.

Anyway let's keep this thread focused on what can be done with regards to mistweavers. There's a lot of good discussion here already, and I know Mist would prefer that we get the ideas rolling.
Edited by Stormingire on 12/4/2012 10:44 PM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
12500
10man normal mode input here.

I'll post this and come back to add more; I didn't want to lose track of the point I wanted to comment on here.

And this brings me to what I see as the primary issue with 10m-H MW'ers. The awkwardness of being able to focus the healing where it's required when it's required.


This is what I keep coming back to over and over again, personally. There is little to no ability to focus healing for healing-intensive moments, unless you've got a healing-intensive moment where the raid can all stack for SCK (to generate Chi) and Chi Burst (to dump the Chi).

Even in 10man it can be a challenge to get RM spread nicely. And while on paper, Chi Burst should be used if you don't have enough RM spread to warrant Uplift, in 10man the distribution of bodies (and damage on said bodies) does not necessarily line up with the mechanics we have for group healing outside of Uplift.

We can work with our group as much as posible to educate them about positioning, but there will be some situations (too many situations) where the kind of positioning non-Uplift group heals require to be effective isn't going to happen for guilds who aren't world Top 500.

The lack of ability to direct heals where heals are needed is intensely frustrating. I played Disc priest pre-MoP; there are very good reasons Cata Atonement was not used for *healing* healing in challenging content outside of low-damage moments and +damage modifier gimmicks.

on Mistweaver utility:

We have Revival, which in 10man is a *powerful* group heal. I continue to... have a bad taste in my mouth, though, that the devs siphoned off a portion of its effectiveness by linking it to our Mass Dispel. I'm not saying it's not very worthwhile using in 10man. I'm saying show me the PvE situations where a spec's Big Healing Cooldown is needed at the same time as a Mass Dispel is needed - and vice versa. I guess I'm a far cry from having cleared all of current content, so hey, maybe I'll be surprised to find out that Blizz has packed opportunities like that into later HoF and TES.

The problem is that the Big Healing Cooldown being tied to our Mass Dispel is what's hamstringing Revival's utility in 25man. Lop off the dispel mechanic and replace it with a +healing modifier (like Divine Hymn) or - here's an interesting idea - a group mana regen mechanic, since we have none to bring to the raid. I'd be amused to find out that there's ever a moment where Big Healing Cooldowns are needed where a mana regen mechanic would be worthless.

We have Zen Meditation, which as Mist has explained, has been gutted as compared to its early Beta incarnation. Now perhaps it *was* too powerful - game-breakingly so - but instead of tweaking it, they gutted it, and it's now only situationally useful. Again, I think it sees more use in 10man than 25man, since redirecting 5 spells cast at raid members = half of the group in 10man, instead of 20% of the group in 25man.

We have Life Cocoon, which was very recently buffed, but still has a ways to go before it can truely be considered to be "something which helps RLs decide to bring MWs to the raid". Dayani explained it *very* well on the first page of this thread, imo.

And those are our three utilities. Zen Meditation isn't even Mistweaver-specific; WW and BM bring it, too. Once again, their utility is questionable for 25man content, although we get by with it in 10man. I completely agree with the assessment of numbers of other people who've posted in this thread; our biggest utility was that we literally *saturated* the raid with heals. Now that we can't, both because of nerfs and mana cost increases, our utility has been diminished.

Once again - don't get me wrong; ultimately I *want* to see us rely less on saturating the raid with undirectable smart heals. "Saturation healing" does not make for interesting healing decisions imo. 5.1, and the mana cost increase hotfix which quickly followed, however, did not alter our course towards being offered interesting healing decisions.
Edited by Meditation on 12/4/2012 11:44 PM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
13535
From a 10m perspective, tonight was pretty frustrating. I'm almost fully raid geared and felt tonight like I was wearing blues again (as far as mana management is concerned).

As was mentioned before, aoe-healing in 10's right now is kind of awkward. Raid members being spread out makes chi burst difficult to aim, same issue happens with SCK. I can't justify the mana cost of that as a heal when I'm only able to hit a couple people at a time with it. It does take a lot of planning to really blanket the raid with ReM (using TFT) before aoe burst damage, but if for some reason you had to ninja heal a tank, that can ruin your chances of getting your blanket coverage.

Jab is expensive to use to build chi, and soothing mists doesn't feel like it reliably builds it when you really need it.

I almost wish soothing mist would just flat-out generate x amount of chi over the duration, instead of being a % chance to generate chi.

Instead of casting ReM on cd, I found myself at times just not casting it at all until after several people had taken damage, just because I knew the odds of it landing where it was needed would go up.

I thought about playing around with chi torpedo, but I realized it would give me the same problems as chi burst. How can I use torpedo to heal if people aren't lined up very specifically? Been using RJW because of those rare moments when people are grouped up just right to make SCK viable, but the way things stand, I'll probably just go back to using Xuen.

This brings me to another issue with 10's, again related to group positioning, and that's eminence healing. It's hard to figure out exactly where to position my statue to benefit the raid the most. The cd to recast our statue is so long, and the mana cost so high, that it's not a viable option to just reposition it depending on where the rdps is.

Long story short, I'm not quite sure what to do with myself as a MW. Granted, the newest nerfs JUST came out, so we all have some adjusting to do but...argh. I'm picking fights apart in my head, trying to figure out the best spec for each, and I'm feeling pretty lost. If you go purely by #'s, it's not as if I'm miles behind our other healers. But over-all I just don't feel very effective. At this point in my raiding progression, I shouldn't feel so starved for mana. The other healers in my raid are in a much better place, mana-wise, while pumping out equivalent numbers.
90 Gnome Monk
7430
Finally, our spot/tank healing is awful. During the period that we were the one-trick-raid-healing-pony it really didn't matter that our single target healing was terrible and mana prohibitive because we were so very good at that one thing. No longer - but our ability to single target heal is still very, very poor and amplified by the unaffordable mana costs.


This.

The one good thing last week (pre mana nerf hot-fix) was that we had the mana to actually spot heal with surging so we had a chance to save the poor guy that never got rm. That went right by the wayside and we're back to praying for good hops on rm. Even doubled LC is unspectacular except on Tsulong. At the very least make the HoT bonus last the full length, I could live with that even if they up the cd a bit. Revival needs to lose the dispel and get an effect that's actually useful in a raid, make it a glyph so the pvp crowd can keep the dispel if they want.

Standing in melee and not pushing buttons for stretches of the fight is less than exciting gameplay but it seems to be one of the better options right now. A bit of light dps+smart heal sniping while the other healers do the heavy lifting so when the real damage comes in you have some mana to work with.
100 Draenei Shaman
12520

This is what I keep coming back to over and over again, personally. There is little to no ability to focus healing for healing-intensive moments, unless you've got a healing-intensive moment where the raid can all stack for SCK (to generate Chi) and Chi Burst (to dump the Chi).

...

The lack of ability to direct heals where heals are needed is intensely frustrating.


Remember how you were flabbergasted that I didn't like Mistweaving, Medi? This is why ;)

As to Pennoyer's arguments about Mist's unsupported data, do keep in mind that stuff like this is very difficult to demonstrate with concrete examples. You can't really point to a log and show, "this is what happened WITH a Mistweaver, now *magicmathematics* this is what would have happened WITHOUT a Mistweaver" and vice versa.

These changes haven't been in effect for very long so of course nobody is going to be able to provide a detailed, point-by-point analysis of why Mistweavers are now hurting and what their position may be . All we really can go on is experience. My semi-educated guess is that the Mistweavers' superior throughput, pre-nerf, was so high that it allowed progression raids to drop a healer, and that the resulting extra DPS allowed guilds to hit the tight enrages of progression fights, and that this outcome was valued higher than the value of whatever healer cooldowns the raid was missing out on by sitting one healer and using a Mistweaver. Now that their throughput has been toned down, I think it is possible that their generally-regarded-as-inferior cooldowns might become more of an issue, and the trade-off of bringing the Mistweaver might no longer be valued as highly, and for certain fights it might result in Mistweavers being sat, or at least undesirable.

Is something like that provable? Probably not. I mean, we could get testimony from guilds who used a Mistweaver and underhealed, and we could get anecdotal evidence from players like myself who don't have a Mistweaver in our raid and found ourselves unable to, say, 5-heal Garalon that first week HoF was available, but I'm not sure that there is a spreadsheet that exists that can prove these things.

I do not think there is any particular harm in discussing what the players of a class view as its flaws and weaknesses, whether there is hard-core evidence to back it up or not. However ... I enjoy trawling logs, ridiculous overanalysis, and math, so I might see what I can do, at least in the way of comparing healer CDs or tank CDs or something, to show why I feel like underneath that velvety layer of zOMG HPS lies a chewy nougat of meh. :)
100 Pandaren Monk
9105
So I've now had a chance to go through most current content (other than H sha) with the current nerfs, and my reaction is that...the sky really isn't falling.

I mean it was a nerf.
It puts us around similar throughput on most fights (though I still win a lot of fights) with average play. With flawless play our burst healing (IE with TFT) is still unrivaled by anyone except shammies or holy paladins using CDS (and still beat by disc priest spirit shell but...who's isnt?). A number of kills in the logs I'm going to link happened to have worse play than normal (because obviously whenever I'm destroying the other healers while still at full mana we wipe, cuz duh), and my logs are by no means "amazing" but I was still able to compete very well as per usual. I am no longer blowing everyone away though, this is for sure.
There are a few problems with monks though. First off, the difference between a monk with flawless play and average play is night and day. Easily 50-100% more throughput. On the other hand, most healers with flawless play can probably expect 20-40% increased throughput but they also are able to keep people alive much better.
So now, bad monks are far below most healers. From experience, I've outhealed numerous 470~ ilvl monks with my 450 (now 460~) ilvl holy paladin in raids. It's painfully obvious that if blizzard wants the 'average' player to continue playing, monks will need massive changes.
On the other hand, amazing monks are now around similar throughput to the other healers. Assuming flawless play on both sides. But the problem is, we bring nothing other than our own personal-survivability as utility now that throughput is equal.
Discs have DR CD's, higher raw throughput, while most of that throughput is absorbs, and SS which completely eliminates most "burst damage" phases of an encounter.
Rshammies bring similar HPS when you include their CD's. This means they have lower "average" healing than us, but whenever its needed they can burst as much or more than we can with flawless play, and all they do is press 1 button (and can continue triage healing etc). They also bring spirit link and mana tide, which feels nearly mandatory for healing through burst phases w/o a disc priest. Oh and they bring +10% health to everyone (great for surviving those "near one shot" mechanics, which can prevent tons of wipes.)
Holy paladins have tons of utility (hand spells, divine shield etc) and some of the best tank healing in the game. They can also spec for amazing burst AoE or sustained single target etc, as fights demand. This makes them very versatile and effective on nearly every fight.
Rdruids. I feel bad for them. They are most definitely in a very bad spot at the moment. This thread isn't about them, but for comparisons sake they bring high sustained healing with negligible burst (though higher "average" the lack of strong burst leaves them sorely lacking in the raw HPS department). They have strong healing while moving via rejuvy/swiftmend/symbiosis SWG, etc. As well, they do bring utility in the form of symbiosis, FF, combat rez as a healer, etc. It doesn't make up for their lacking HPS, nor is it as strong as the above 3's.
Holy priests: Unsure how they play out, from my experience they are weaker than rshams/MW at raid heals and worse at tank healing than holy paladins but are sort of a jack of all trades between the two. However, it's currently outshadow'd by disc which completely dominates everything (except for tsulong, where GS is OP.)
Long story short, with near-flawless play on all sides, monks bring similar (slightly higher in many cases) throughput as most other healers, while lacking the utility that makes the other healers great.
With bad play, MW are simply far behind other classes at similar skill levels, at least from what I've seen.
Edited by Astråios on 12/4/2012 11:35 PM PST
100 Pandaren Monk
9105
So while I say the sky isn't falling, I don't feel useful to my raid. I'm brought because I have relatively solid performances, am normally reliable (show up to raids on time etc), and because I perform mechanics well. Though I have my days where I just mess up every mechanics (cough tsulong nightmares I hate you). But regardless, I feel like I'd be more useful on a disc priest/holy paladin/rsham than my MW.

On another note, I've always been a proponent of intellect stacking. I've stacked int before the patch first hit, after it hit, and I'm still stacking it. There hasn't been a single fight so far where (when properly healing) I felt like I couldn't make it through a fight. I'm currently around 7500 spirit, flask/food int, and have around 33k spellpower buffed and I love it. I very rarely SCK because it's cost was increased by a lot more than jab. (Jabs effective increase ~3k, SCK's effective increase is ~6k.) Also, when you have around 10-12 targets with RnM jab>SCK HPS wise anyway. Anyway, my main point is that I'm still stacking int and I'm not having trouble with mana. You can point at my gear and say I'm well overgeared for most of the fights in the log, but I'm still running less spirit than most. (Admittedly, if you factor in trinkets I'm probably around 10k passive spirit.) I generally raid with 2rshams/1disc, so that may be it as well.

Anyway, most of my conclusions are drawn from my most recent raid nights logs here(4/12):
http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/27393/

There are definitely still fights which dont favor us, such as lei shi. The lack of easy ability to fore-know when get away is coming makes it feel like a waste to constantly RnM, but once I started spamming it helped a lot [hey just like when I started healing as a MW]. At the moment our tank burst is still worthwhile for fights like lei shi though.

Anyway, I feel like the nerfs took us too low in throughput when you take into consideration the lack of utility comparing to other healers throughput+utility. I don't think we're now "absolutely broken" in terms of throughput, we're still competitive. I feel like theres a lot wrong with the class, but with my current gear/progression its not enough for me to reroll for current progression. Obviously what I do for next tier depends on buffs and how lucky I am when gearing up alts.

Also I don't feel like mana is nearly as bad as most people say it is, maybe it's a playstyle thing though. I've had the mana available to use jab/uplift when needed, and frankly I still out-last my rshams. In the past I've outhealed monks stacking spirit and lasted significantly longer. Mana management is probably the hardest part about MW'er healing, because if you play wrong once during a fight, it can blow a hole in your mana that will reduce your healing significantly the rest of the fight. This is very important because of our lack of ability to target. Basically we're like a raid-wide healing stream totem. So if you can't keep your output up, you'll end up spending even more mana than before trying to catch up, significantly more because of how we're designed. (which I could get into, but this post specifically isn't about that.)

PS: Yes I did copy-paste this from my last response. Mostly because it's the exact same thread in a different location and because people keep saying "well theres nothing other healers bring thats so great', but thats simply not true, and my comparison was made in the above post.
Edited by Astråios on 12/4/2012 11:40 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
14860
If you feel that MW is a problem because you're essentially having to relearn the class, then I can how that might be a problem. That's a separate issue from the major conclusion of your original post, which is that there is no incentive for 25 man guilds bring MWs (and also a separate issue from the snippet I was quoting).


I don't see anything in that quote of Mist to suggest that Mist believes having to relearn is the issue. He is referring to the class itself this week compared to two weeks ago, not the players themselves.

I was using the druid example to challenge that notion- there are several things MWs can do that are relatively unique, which I listed out, on top of still having competitive and often better than average numbers on most fights (which is, after all, the primary function of a healer). It seems that, except for Spirit Shell, other healer-specific CDs are often being overvalued by Mistweavers. If you claim that MWs are bringing nothing to the table because other classes have tools that are better than what they have, then that's going to naturally invite a discussion about what exactly those other guys are bringing that you aren't as a MW. Otherwise, you've just assumed the critical fact that we're trying to figure out in the first place- that every other spec does indeed bring enough heals and largely better CDs over MWs to the point that MWs have no place in 25H progression.


Cherry picking out resto druids as a counter-example to Mist's position misses the point. It is entirely possible that both Mistweavers and Resto druids are underpowered. Mist's position, that there needs to be more incentive to bring Mistweavers to raids, does not require "every other spec" or even for mistweavers to have "no place in 25H progression"; it merely requires that superior alternatives to mistweavers exist such that bringing mistweavers to raids is a significant liability.

If you simply want to assume that MW is simply not good and want to go ahead with coming up with various ideas, then that's fine, I suppose. But I think you still need to lay the groundwork of your case, and simply feeling like you have to put more effort into mastering MW doesn't seem like a good reason. I say this because this thread seems designed to catch the developers' eyes and help them with MW, but it's skipping a critical step that I see GC ask all the time when people claim their class, whether DPS, healer, or tank, needs work (e.g. "Who is stronger than you, and why?" "Where's the data and/or analysis that proves this?"). Often, those people don't have good answers, or neglect to reply, and nothing comes of it.


This right here though is what the discussion in this thread needs to be about. Mist started the discussion, but he certainly didn't finish it. As you've pointed out, cases need to be made for where mistweavers are lacking. Those questions you asked need answers. Do shamans, paladins, or disc priests bring better cooldowns? How does their healing compare? How do other incentives, like Ancestral Healing, compare to what mistweavers bring? Is mistweaver more difficult than other classes? Why?

Also, while brainstorming class changes is fun, it's often not particularly helpful unless it is being used to illustrate a shortcoming in the class.
Edited by Maladii on 12/4/2012 11:46 PM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
12500

This is what I keep coming back to over and over again, personally. There is little to no ability to focus healing for healing-intensive moments, unless you've got a healing-intensive moment where the raid can all stack for SCK (to generate Chi) and Chi Burst (to dump the Chi).

...

The lack of ability to direct heals where heals are needed is intensely frustrating.


Remember how you were flabbergasted that I didn't like Mistweaving, Medi? This is why ;)


Well, I knew as well as the next gal that our hps was going to have to get adjusted seriously even back in Beta. The toolkit as a whole was fascinating to me, though (some of it may have been that I'd never played a dual resource toon, I suppose, and diving into Mistweaver made me all excited at how that all came together); I simply did not anticipate that what the devs would do would be to tone down our hps without finding a way of giving us some *control* over things. The last thing on my mind was that they'd leave us as saturation healers. That makes no sense to me.

However, you absolutely called it, and I'm disappointed. I'm not benching my MW anytime soon; my guild isn't raiding enough to progress enough for me to be really hindering our performance. I still absolutely hope for the devs to find a "sweet spot" for the spec, and I'll ride the roller coaster out. Part of sticking with MW, though, is that I can't go back to my Disc priest. Our resto druid went Disc/Holy for MoP, and my RL is MS shadow, OS holy for swing healing. No way can I bring a 3rd priest to a 10man.

I'm going to be working on other healing alts on the side (I have a pally & a shammy in spitting distance of MoP content), though, in case it's needed if things get worse for Mistweavers, instead of better.
100 Night Elf Priest
13930
I'd like to raise an issue I've seen both as an observer of my raid's MW, and after playing my own Monk.

Uncontrolled healing. The vast majority of healing done by a Mistweaver cannot be directly guided by the player. Every healer has something to that effect, usually in the guise of smart heals. Disc Priests probably come closest to comparison with Atonement. However, every other healer can also control most of their healing. Monks cannot. Eminence (self and statue), Renewing Mists, Uplift, and Mastery spheres are all uncontrollable.

Ultimately, this leaves me feeling frustrated because I feel as though I'm not managing my heals so much as hoping they go where I want them (ie: not pets and not players who already have RM on them).

Beyond that, I see a weakness in utility that should be countered by a strength in throughput. I doubt anyone will disagree that Monk healing was well beyond what it ought to have been, but now it's where other healers are and they aren't providing a great deal of utility in return.

I will say that Holy Priests and Resto Druids have traditionally been low-utility, high-throughput contenders, and that they too have suffered this expansion. In contrast, Resto Shaman and Disc Priests are ripe in both throughput and utility, currently. In fact, of the available healers, they are probably the two most desirable specs.

It makes me question the direction of healing balance. What else can Mistweavers bring? What else can Holy Priests and Resto Druids bring? How do you balance utility with throughput?
100 Pandaren Monk
9105
The problem is that bringing extra throughput and no utility is fine. In most progression cases, our raw throughput is enough to justify bringing us, not enough to justify stacking us and dropping other healers. You can only "heal someone up" so quickly, and adding more healers does not decrease that time linearly. On the other hand, disc priest spirit shell CAN stack and reduce damage pretty linearly by adding disc priests. That's why guilds were beginning to swap MW and began STACKING disc priests >BEFORE< the MW nerfs. As well, MW's lack of ability to control who we heal means that we require other healers to be there to spot heal etc, which is why we worked amazingly well with hpallies in 10m. This lack of control also !@#$s us when we heal with disc since a large portion of people may not take any noticeable damage but they will have RnM while people taking huge amounts of damage( no spirit shell absorb) will not, etc.

The only reason logical reason we were nerfed is that it lowered the gear check on heroic fights built around raid damage, like garalon/tsulong...except plenty of guilds have cleared it w/o it, and even so MW's weren't exactly stacked on them. Meaning...if that was the reason, they don't have much reason. Really, the only logical explanation is that so many people were QQ'ing about meters (of which monks are inherently meter padding scrubs because that's how the majority of our healing works, until healing sphere lolol) that they don't realize that it requires other healers to support the playstyle. It was the same thing as holy paladins using eternal flame 4pc. Gain raw throughput, sacrifice some amount of ability to effectively triage heal. But obviously, people care more about meters (which are inherently impossible to compare, because if one healer messes up then you will look better, than on attempts where that healer doesn't mess up) than about actual utility or what makes healing a fight easiest or most successful.

I've also seen around here that MW are so "easy" and that you "just jabx2/uplift and TFT on cd for rigged ez throughput"...Well, you DO realize that jabx2/uplift is still the highest sustainable throughput we have now? SCK is unsustainable after the mana nerf and is no longer strong enough to warrant its mana cost. Further, the preparation and the "fragility" of MW burst healing is significantly higher than almost every other healer. The only healer who does anything requiring remotely as much forethought is a disc priest using spirit shell, except one requires precise timing and planning 30s in advance (or mindlessly hitting RnM on CD) and one requires you to...know 15s ahead of time and then press PoH on 5 groups once or twice. On the other hand, optimal burst healing with TFT occurs in around a 4-5s window. If you miss that window, your either did it too soon and lost your extra throughput completely, or you did it too late and you lose 30-40% of your potential gain. What do other healers do? pop a cd and obtain direct and/or noticeable healing increases. TFT is a ramping CD which requires near flawless execution to perform optimally. Sure if you mindlessly spam your keyboard you'll do alright HPS, but news flash, most other healers are the same. Except easier. Theres even less room to mess up healing as a holy paladin/rsham/disc priest than a MW. When you want more throughput as a holy paladin/rsham: pop down a CD. When you want more throughput as a MW? Hope your boss timers are accurate or you're only gaining 50% of the bonus, or potentially losing it all.
90 Blood Elf Monk
8360
my resto shaman is already 89, hbu guys? ur new mains 90 yet?
100 Pandaren Monk
9105
The nerfs are not enough to warrant a blatant reroll at the moment, esp. with the time it would take to gear up etc. It's only a real problem if you're a hardcore heroic raider. But most of those guys are done with progression this tier, so theres really no point in "rerolling". Since you wont be geared by the time you finish progression.
100 Night Elf Priest
13930
12/05/2012 12:02 AMPosted by Astråios
The problem is that bringing extra throughput and no utility is fine. In most progression cases, our raw throughput is enough to justify bringing us, not enough to justify stacking us and dropping other healers.


I agree that high throughput and low/no utility is okay. However, there's a huge problem when you have classes like Disc/Resto who bring both high throughput and amazing utility, or classes like Resto Druids who are bringing mediocre throughput and low utility. Holy Priests are doing a bit better, but only because their healing is decent (but still not enough to warrant how little utility they bring).
100 Worgen Druid
13380
Yeh, I would not go overboard and re-roll etc.. Monks are still very effective in many ways.

I mentioned earlier that our Monk did OK after the nerfs. Well it was better than just OK, as in he still did 105K on Garalon, which is better than the #1 parses for other classes. He is fairly under-geared too...

That does not mean the holes in their toolkit do not need fixing., but they are still ahead of most classes on pure raid throughput fights.
Edited by Fangthorn on 12/5/2012 1:05 AM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
6950
12/05/2012 12:47 AMPosted by Fangthorn
I mentioned earlier that our Monk did OK after the nerfs. Well it was better than just OK, as in he still did 105K on Garalon


Can we stop quoting Garalon HPS figures as proof or evidence of anything at all. It's proves precisely nothing the large figures MW's can achieve on a fight that is essentially purpose build for the strengths of MW healing and doesn't contribute the conversation.

It's the non-gimmick, traditional fights that expose our weaknesses - and that what we're talking about here.
100 Worgen Druid
13380
Stacking and high raid damage are not really gimmicky. Quite a few fights fill that niche and MW well this teir. Anyway, we only did HoF that night, so I don't have any real personal observations beyond that for now. I really don't know what you mean by "traditional fight", I don't think there is such a thing. High raid damage is a very common type of mechanic anyway.

I said you have holes in your toolkit (don't know why you removed that from your quote?) that need fixing... My only point is that you are very strong in the same exact areas as before the nerfs, just not absurdly strong.
Edited by Fangthorn on 12/5/2012 1:29 AM PST
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