State of Mistweavers as of 12/4/2012

(Locked)

90 Pandaren Monk
6950
Because the absurd numbers Monks can do on Garalon don't mean jack when it comes to the state of Monks in general. Unless Blizzard are intending to release a raid teir of very high movement/very spread raid fights then Garalon is not an indication of anything.

/end thread derail
Edited by Intêrferêncê on 12/5/2012 3:03 AM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
12625
(I raid 25man btw)
My knee-jerk reaction to blizzards knee-jerk reaction of hotfixing mana costs was to drop haste in favor of pure crit/spirit geming and reforging, off the top of my head I am at around 12.5-13k spirit and upper/mid 20s for crit raid buffed, with this I am having no mana problems at all.

As for a few of the things Mist has said. One of my favorite things about monk was that I could be an active healer, that has always been my playstyle. With a monk I could jab/do various other things when there are "lulls" in incoming damage (compared to jumping around doing nothing on any other healer). With the mana hike this has come to an end, but I instead now fill the period of time I would have spent jabbing / SZ etc with chugging mana tea (unglyphed). I don't find this to be a big issue simply because if you have to reaction you can cancel the channel and come back to it later as needed.

I have a question for you Mist, I looked at your log and noticed not a lot of expel harm usage. Is this because wologs simply doesn't record it properly or are you only using it as a self heal? Personally I constantly use expel harm as a cheap chi generator, or as a method of "storing" a spare chi when I know I will need it on the fly to get off an extra chi burst / whatever I may be using.

As far as renewing mists goes, I feel their method of fixing ReM/Uplift was poorly done. Personally I would have rather had a flat % reduction in uplift healing done per ReM target and a reduction in healing done of ReM before they reduced the number of ReMs that can go out (yes I understand that in reducing ReM count it yields a % reduction in uplift healing).
->I doubt the spell will ever be changed but what I have suggested in the past it to drop the CD, give it ~30% chance to generate 1 chi, make it a single target Hot only (no bounce) and cut the mana cost to ~1/3 of what it is now.
-->Quite simply: If I can't get it on a large QUANTITY of people, I want it on QUALITY targets that I may select.

For the time being however: As I said I'm not having any mana issues with my current geming / reforge, over time Id like to slowly back this off in favor of other stats. I am feeling that in a 25 man setting not completely neglecting mastery may be something worth trying. I have noticed as my other abilities contributions to my healing has gone down, mastery has been creeping up quite a bit - I see it did 13.5% for you Mist, I believe mine is doing about the same on fights that favor stacking. Chi burst is obvioulsy a go to for almost all fights, even when the raid isn't stacking you can still have solid chi bursts with smart positioning of yourself. I think I will always be a diehard Xuen fan though, the distance on chi torpedo is just too far, and I often burn rolls to position better chi bursts anyways. If you want more free healing, see what I said on mastery.

All in all I am still pulling solid numbers (usually 1st or 2nd in terms of effective healing for kills) - but its definitely not as fun as it was. Note: it wasn't fun before b/c of LOL doing same amount of healing as 3 other healers - it was fun because I always had some fun interesting "something" I could do.
I won't complain about raid CDs b/c that honestly doesn't bother me all that much. I use zen meditation as a personal 90% dmg reduction for an incoming attack / ability, and then cancel after that, something everyone should be doing until they make it actually DO what its supposed to be used for.

I had almost hoped that perhaps we would come out of this as pretty solid single target tank healers, but that didn't really pan out either. Soothing mist is no holy light / heal by any means, enveloping is nowhere close to a "bomb heal" and does anyone actually have surging hotkeyed? (i joke of course - but its still really bad)

TL;DR : mana not so bad (dump haste unglyph tea) - healing is less active and more boring (but I still stay what the heck and spam CJL often enough)
90 Night Elf Druid
10550
12/05/2012 02:42 AMPosted by Sukkapunch
All in all I am still pulling solid numbers (usually 1st or 2nd in terms of effective healing for kills) - but its definitely not as fun as it was.


This was one of the main complaints from our MW along with uncontrolled healing. Our last two raid nights, his numbers seemed quite good but he was definitely hurting for mana (we raid 10man).

If there's one thing we've learned over the last 8 years, it's that Blizzard doesn't do minor nerf tweaks... No No, they like to take things out at the knees with a chainsaw.
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
12/05/2012 03:03 AMPosted by Sherbear
If there's one thing we've learned over the last 8 years, it's that Blizzard doesn't do minor nerf tweaks... No No, they like to take things out at the knees with a chainsaw.


They don't seem to do minor buff tweaks, either. At least not lately. Everything seems very...see-saw-ish.
90 Draenei Shaman
11680
12/05/2012 03:40 AMPosted by Tiriél
If there's one thing we've learned over the last 8 years, it's that Blizzard doesn't do minor nerf tweaks... No No, they like to take things out at the knees with a chainsaw.


They don't seem to do minor buff tweaks, either. At least not lately. Everything seems very...see-saw-ish.


I was just literally, in gchat, comparing the rebalancing efforts to performing delicate surgery with a chainsaw :)
90 Pandaren Monk
12240
feedback for blues - mana is much tighter. Way too tight - reason fopr this is two fold.

Because of the mana increase of spells, im not casting/jabbing all the time to try and conserve, as a result, im generating less chi.

Less chi spent = Less tea made.

Less tea made = less mana returned.

problem with this is that renewing mists cast on CD will drain mana at such a significant rate that regening mana from tea or passively during luls is severely limited now.

This needs major adjusting. that or double the tea generated as baseline - ie 2 stacks for every 4 chi spent, not this crit chance BS. Less casting means this crit chance bs is, well, bs.

im finding it very difficult to be overly effective now which is a shame.
90 Troll Shaman
13250
Well written Mist. They probably need to bring mana back up a "little" but they still have to make sure you are concerned with your mana bar otherwise what is the purpose. Most healers are struggling with mana on progression anyway. Maybe increase crit rate on mana tea or something along thos lines or knock the generator down to three charges per mana tea.

MW bring some good utility and flexibility to a raid as well. Not sure any other healer can trivialize sparks on H Will or soak on H Elegon. I know those are just two examples but i would imagine there are more as well. My mw is still just a baby.
Edited by Harpoa on 12/5/2012 4:36 AM PST
90 Gnome Monk
7430
12/05/2012 04:36 AMPosted by Harpoa
Well written Mist. They probably need to bring mana back up a "little" but they still have to make sure you are concerned with your mana bar otherwise what is the purpose. Most healers are struggling with mana on progression anyway. Maybe increase crit rate on mana tea or something along thos lines or knock the generator down to three charges per mana tea.


The crit mana tea change was the root of the whole mana fiasco. Before that we did have to worry about mana although it was probably a little too good. It certainly didn't need any buffing, which that change was. The haste change was a good idea as it gave us some options for reforging beyond "throw everything you can into crit once you have x spirit" which was the previous state but the crit change was just dumb.

The hotfix answer should have just been to get rid of the mana tea crit and leave the spell costs alone and see what happens. I seriously doubt that would have generated near the amount of angst and complaining.
90 Troll Shaman
13250
12/05/2012 04:53 AMPosted by Linnelle
The hotfix answer should have just been to get rid of the mana tea crit and leave the spell costs alone and see what happens.


I would assume that they tried this as it would have been a much easier hotfix than to change a bunch of spell costs. I know a lot of people think they don't know what they are doing but as someone with years in business i know that companies will never do the more expensive thing to try to fix a problem.

Also i am assuming they "saw" what happened after 5.1 and were unhappy with it. They have a ton more data than WoL can ever show us.

Pretty sure GC tweeted they went a little overboard on the nerfs. Would imagine they will tweek something this upcoming reset but i would highly doubt they will do anything midweek to address mana.
90 Pandaren Monk
7230
Iam a casual player, not even finished MV normals. Well i get what you are saying Mist. Since the patch every fight is a struggle. And i mean, the fight that where supposedly to be easy are a struggle.

As helaers we got a Shaman, me as MW and a offhealer paladin. I am the current fisrt healer in the raid group, I was before the patch and I still am. But the thing is, the effort I put in every fight seems overwhelming. We did Feng 10 N yesterday. I finish the fight with no mana and no mana tea, but he was ok overall. By that i mean with a 50% mana pool and ready to go on.

I mean, I still did more raw healing then he did, but no by much, and i had to expend all the mana and all the mana tea.

Monk is an complicated spot right now. I just getting tired of look for the better reforges and stats for monk. Right at this moment, look like everybody is trying everything.
90 Night Elf Druid
17920
Our group uses a monk sometimes as a 3rd healer.

His output still seems fine, he's not really behind or anything. And he isn't as geared. He wasn't complaining about the monk changes.

As far as ending fights on no mana. Welcome to Druids. I haven't ended fights with mana since MoP came out and I am fairly geared(391 iLvl).

You may not be able to spam cast, and you have to play "smarter" - but as long as you make it til it does - does it matter if you end with mana or not?

I always feel like I have to work harder then other healers and get less HPS / have more mana issues but it's better then being the OP / Faceroll class that monks were.

I don't think that Monks are broken, people just need to relearn how to play. It's no longer a "spam buttons the whole fight" class because if you do that you're sure to OOM.
90 Pandaren Monk
6740
From a 10 man standpoint: I hate disc priests. Death to them.

Also..buff base damage on staff or auto attack damage or something...like why does disc do so much damage makes me angry..
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
12/05/2012 03:03 AMPosted by Sherbear
All in all I am still pulling solid numbers (usually 1st or 2nd in terms of effective healing for kills) - but its definitely not as fun as it was.


This was one of the main complaints from our MW along with uncontrolled healing. Our last two raid nights, his numbers seemed quite good but he was definitely hurting for mana (we raid 10man).

If there's one thing we've learned over the last 8 years, it's that Blizzard doesn't do minor nerf tweaks... No No, they like to take things out at the knees with a chainsaw.


They also remove fun as you hinted.....and I don't mean fun in being OP or never going OOM....I mean fun in terms of a new and unique healing style that has now been gutted.

Oh well.
90 Undead Warlock
8345
Our group uses a monk sometimes as a 3rd healer.

His output still seems fine, he's not really behind or anything. And he isn't as geared. He wasn't complaining about the monk changes.

As far as ending fights on no mana. Welcome to Druids. I haven't ended fights with mana since MoP came out and I am fairly geared(391 iLvl).

You may not be able to spam cast, and you have to play "smarter" - but as long as you make it til it does - does it matter if you end with mana or not?

I always feel like I have to work harder then other healers and get less HPS / have more mana issues but it's better then being the OP / Faceroll class that monks were.

I don't think that Monks are broken, people just need to relearn how to play. It's no longer a "spam buttons the whole fight" class because if you do that you're sure to OOM.


Either we're overhealing or I'm not pushing myself hard enough because I almost always have mana leftover as an rdruid (usually if I'm OOM at the end of a fight, it's because one of our other healers died and I had to pick up the pace for them). e: our comp for reference is MW/rdruid/rsham with me going DPS for the last 4 fights in MSV (although we did 2x rdruid + rsham last night)

Yeah, we're hurting, but the fact that MW have been constantly moving between 1-2 useful spells (RM/Uplift, RM/SCK, SCK/Chi Burst) shows that they have deep mechanical issues and their new mana problems are further highlighting that.

(Also re: let's please not turn this into a druid thread)

e: Also I'm not sure why you think this is a l2p issue when the OP is in a high-end progression guild and, to my knowledge, is a very good healer.
Edited by Swagguh on 12/5/2012 7:46 AM PST
90 Blood Elf Monk
17050
Morning, everyone. Color me tickled to see the amount of feedback already posted. Good job!

@Xiata: I'm not saying that we don't need to relearn or that we shouldn't oom at some point in a fight. I understand that druids are in a bad place, but bringing up that point in this thread serves little purpose. It's obvious that we need to adjust, and most of us are.

This discussion needs to be about the overall design and feel of the class as of now, and the fact that going into the next tier, if things do not change, mistweavers may just not be an attractive healing class when you have paladins, shaman, and priest. As storm stated before. If I was a raid leader, I can't justify bringing me to a progression raid other than the fact that I'm a good player and can put up semi-quality, and from time to time quality numbers. I'd rather bring a priest or a shaman. And more priests and more shaman.

Additionally, as Astralos stated, the margin for error is slim to none and the gap between a good mistweaver and an average mistweaver is extraordinarily massive. It is very easy for a player of my level to screw up and have our healing tanked. I can't imagine what it's like for the average player.

We've got the ball rolling slowly, now, if we keep up the good conversation, I'll be content. I'm currently heading back to the drawing board to consider more feedback to be presented to the community.
Edited by Mist on 12/5/2012 7:46 AM PST
MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Pandaren Monk
HC
11700
P.S. updated my post with a response.
________________________________________________
Healing Forum MVP
AKA. Practical
90 Pandaren Monk
9995
I've never been a fan of mana nerfs. Doesn't really address really geared monks doing really well and screws over newer, lesser-geared monks. There's no medium to it, especially with the nerfs this large. And if mana costs are hurting even really geared monks this badly on farm content then it's clear that the way this was handled wasn't particularly good.

Our kit is incredibly disjointed right now. In 10m I pretty much resort to Soothing Mists because Jab costs are too high, and there are times where I don't even want to SCK in heavy AoE because of its really high mana cost. We're basically left with two ways of getting Chi, which is ReM and Soothing (which is unreliable), and the fistweaving playstyle is essentially gone. Pre-nerf I could work between the two to maximize my healing, and that was really fun. Now I'm just stuck to Soothing and ReM cause everything else just sucks. lol.

As for changes, I honestly don't know what to suggest because I have no idea what Blizz wants us to do. Our single-target got nerfed (for reasons I'm still unclear of) and all of our AoE healing options were nerfed in some way, which has a much greater impact in 25 compared to 10. I can still fall back to ReM + Uplifts in 10m but 25m doesn't have anything without destroying their mana. I don't think they needed to nerf our entire AoE healing kit, just one or another would've been fine.

I'm still going to play my monk, but it's certainly less fun than it was before. And not because I'm playing more conservatively, but because there's hardly any options for me to use outside of ReM, Uplift and Soothing.

Edit: Only done H Will on 10m but it doesn't seem so bad. Despite being a really long fight, I had enough mana to heal through the entire fight and have extra for sticky situations. Didn't do any fistweaving though and the fight itself was pretty boring regardless of what I did. Still, I imagine I wouldn't be doing any fistweaving anytime soon, outside of Elegon and Garalon.
Edited by Manpandle on 12/5/2012 8:49 AM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
6995
12/04/2012 10:13 PMPosted by Pennoyer
How is bringing a MW to a 25 man raid worse than, say, bringing a druid (keeping in mind that if you really needed Stampeding Roar/Symbiosis, you can get that from a boomkin/feral/guardian druid, of which there are enough in 25 man raids)


Actually, thanks for asking this question, because it highlights the issue. I feel qualified to answer this, as both my resto druid and my mistweaver have been raiding normal modes.

Having worked with healing both classes post-nerf, I will readily say that the answer to your question is "yes." While both classes are going to have trouble when things go sideways, the difference is that during regular and predictable burts, mistweavers ALREADY often feel like things have gone awry. While playing on my druid, the sustained damage is normal and manageable, and I can focus on preparing for damage spikes and manage my mana extremely well with only ~7k spirit.

On my mistweaver, however, though he is sitting at ~9.6k spirit, every moment in a fight feels like those moments where I'm managing the damage spikes, and if things go sideways, I feel impotent because I'm already giving it everything I've got managing my mana and trying to keep people alive. I CAN do it, but it requires far more work than it does on my druid.

The difference here is pretty drastic: my mistweaver stresses me out and I'm exhausted after fights, and my druid is trucking along at a consistent, reliable pace. I think the really stark contrast that should be noted here is the difference in spirit on both toons...my mistweaver has 2.5k more spirit unbuffed, and yet feels incredibly inferior on mana than my druid. Not to mention I've started using int flasks and food on my druid sometimes, and on my mistweaver I am ALWAYS using spirit flasks and food, making it an almost 4k spirit difference.

I will wholeheartedly agree that at the beginning of 5.1, we were sitting at infinite mana. Yes, that needed to change (sorry, but the crit tea, though an idea that makes sense, really broke our mana). The manner in which that issue was fixed broke us in the opposite direction, and has made mistweavers' skill requirement jump significantly. I'm all for a challenge, but I'm not a masochist.

tl:dr, Mistweavers post-hotfix are very inferior on mana issues than druids, specifically, and GC has said that they believe that druids are fine where they are. Logic follows that mistweavers should have their mana issues re-examined to bring their mana performance back up to par.

EDIT: grammar and hyperbole in one spot
Edited by Pandormous on 12/5/2012 9:09 AM PST
This topic is locked.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]