Arcane - Scorch Weaving vs. Stack Dropping

100 Blood Elf Mage
8200
12/05/2012 11:30 AMPosted by Nyteshadè
Based on results someone posted yesterday, it looks like the DPS is about the same on single target so you can probably choose between the 2 based on encounters. For Elegon, you would probably want to scorch weave during the second phase so you can easily burst down the sparks. For cleave encounters, you will want to clear stacks.


Are you talking about the SimCraft results? Mage modules are broken right now, I wouldn't trust anything coming out of there until it gets updated.

E: I wonder how much scorch weaving I'm going to have to do at ilvl 482 to keep my mana above 90% while never dropping stacks.
Edited by Wexler on 12/5/2012 11:39 AM PST
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90 Troll Mage
9100
Slatra I don't think barrage is useless. So far dropping stacks looks to be just as viable as scorch weaving. I like that we have a choice of playstyle built into the spec as opposed to blizzard just choosing for us. I wish they gave us a secondary glyph that turned scorched into purple fire or something cool!

Then again this all might be unintended and they'll just take away our toys again.
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90 Troll Mage
9100
Wexier I'd recommend dropping stacks until you get to two set bonus and then switch to scorch weaving afterwards.

Scorch weave to keep up stacks so when your missiles proc you can always use them at max damage (6stacks) and get the damage bonus from the set.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
8200
Oh I got the 2 piece (LFR >_>), so I guess it's scorch weaving for me.
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100 Human Mage
13645
12/05/2012 11:38 AMPosted by Wexler
Are you talking about the SimCraft results? Mage modules are broken right now, I wouldn't trust anything coming out of there until it gets updated.


There were some numbers posted up detailing results from haste vs mastery and scorch weaving vs dropping stacks. I don't think they were sims but I could be wrong.
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90 Troll Mage
9100
12/05/2012 12:00 PMPosted by Nyteshadè
Are you talking about the SimCraft results? Mage modules are broken right now, I wouldn't trust anything coming out of there until it gets updated.


There were some numbers posted up detailing results from haste vs mastery and scorch weaving vs dropping stacks. I don't think they were sims but I could be wrong.


The OP of that thread posted the third response on this thread - Mumrit. They were simcrafted results - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7320081962
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100 Worgen Mage
12940
Try rune of power with arcane.

With rune of power I was able to stay at 6-stacks indefinitely without scorch weaving. Just spam arcane blast, with an AM cast on proc, and AP on cooldown. Mana never went below 90%. If you're in a low-movement fight it's probably the way to go.
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90 Human Paladin
13720
You only drop your stacks and use barrage if your low on haste. which most of you including Gravitation are. Since your stacking mastery.

If your stacking haste than you shouldn't have to drop your stacks at all. and 1 or 2 scorchs will put you right back to full mana.
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100 Human Mage
14555
OMG please do not discuss scorch weaving to keep 6 charges of arcane blast.

This clearly is NOT what blizzard wants to see. If one day they figure out arcane can stay at 6 charges all day and use some weird mechanism like scorch weaving, another devastating hotfix will come and we are all DOOMED!

Well..honestly speaking I am using scorch weaving when mana drops below 60%..I don't care the loss from low mana as I stack haste rather than mastery...

But..shhhhh...
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90 Human Paladin
13720
OMG please do not discuss scorch weaving to keep 6 charges of arcane blast.

This clearly is NOT what blizzard wants to see. If one day they figure out arcane can stay at 6 charges all day and use some weird mechanism like scorch weaving, another devastating hotfix will come and we are all DOOMED!

Well..honestly speaking I am using scorch weaving when mana drops below 60%..I don't care the loss from low mana as I stack haste rather than mastery...

But..shhhhh...


I agree with Sefina. We should end this topic. Before arcane gets a nerf.
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90 Human Mage
IQ
8250
I agree with Sefina. We should end this topic. Before arcane gets a nerf.


Arcane wont a get nerf directly. They will likely raise the mana cost of scorch to make it unusable in that situation. Thats if it is indeed higher DPS to use.
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100 Human Mage
14555
12/05/2012 02:14 PMPosted by Batar
I agree with Sefina. We should end this topic. Before arcane gets a nerf.


Arcane wont a get nerf directly. They will likely raise the mana cost of scorch to make it unusable in that situation. Thats if it is indeed higher DPS to use.


You know nothing..man.. The spell coefficient for fireball is just 1.5 for fireball, and around 3.2 for pyroblast. Now let us see what arcane get: the basic spell coefficient for arcane blast is around 1, and for missiles is around 0.3*5. (these numbers is not that accurate i know). Now, at 6 stacks, basically it is a 144% boost, so arcane blast coefficient is 2.44 and missiles becomes 3.66. These numbers are way more crazy that fire. The only reason arcane is not broken before is we have a massive mana cost to stay at 6 charges, with this patch everything is BROKEN. And the reason is due to the mana cost reduction.. Now you tell me this will not get nerfed? That is just not Blizzard!
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90 Pandaren Mage
8985
Try rune of power with arcane.

With rune of power I was able to stay at 6-stacks indefinitely without scorch weaving. Just spam arcane blast, with an AM cast on proc, and AP on cooldown. Mana never went below 90%. If you're in a low-movement fight it's probably the way to go.


keyword on that. "lowmovement fight" most fights are not low movement. RoP is a very viable talent. a good replacement imo is Incanters ward. Most of the time the high movement fights are the fights with a high raid dmg. using incanters ward can serve as a good substitute during these encounters
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90 Gnome Mage
0
I keep my stacks at max and i see not a major change in my dps, but somewhat of an improvement. The problem with arcane is we're sorta using a player-fix to it. We found out we have more mana regen then we use mana and we are playing it that way. lol!
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90 Troll Mage
12600
12/05/2012 11:20 AMPosted by Batar
Interesting that 2 spots above blatty is a fire mage from today.


If you're talking about the Chinese(?) Mage it could also be that the hotfixes aren't live on that server yet. I noticed a couple of nights ago watching an asian Shek'zeer kill that they had 3-4 Fire Mages in the top 4 spots so I figured the nerfs hadn't been rolled out yet.
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100 Troll Mage
11945
You only drop your stacks and use barrage if your low on haste. which most of you including Gravitation are. Since your stacking mastery.

If your stacking haste than you shouldn't have to drop your stacks at all. and 1 or 2 scorchs will put you right back to full mana.


Unless I am mistaken, haste increases your mana regen at the same rate it decreases your cast times. Which means that if you are always casting, after a set amount of casts, your mana will be the same at all haste levels.

Which means, assuming you are always casting, the mana regen you get from haste is basically neutral.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
8200
Hey Grav I saw your posts in the DD forum, seems like you got a good handle on the spec right now. I ran it last night, haste heavy (31% in Frost Armor) and I could keep up stacks fairly easily. I saw that you were running mastery heavy build so I wanted to ask you a couple of things:

Are you aiming for specific haste point, and if so, what?
How far down are you running your mana? In otherwords, how low is your mana before you start casting scorch, assuming no Missile procs?
Mage or Frost armor?

My rotation was basically:
Keep bomb up
Stack to 6 charges with AB (or AM if I had 2 missile procs)
Blow all CDS
Keep up six stacks with AB, casting missiles only if a second procced or if I need to build some mana
Scorching if I'm around 85% mana with no AM procs.

Sound about right?
Edited by Wexler on 12/6/2012 11:29 AM PST
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100 Human Mage
14695
Are you talking about the SimCraft results? Mage modules are broken right now, I wouldn't trust anything coming out of there until it gets updated.

SimC isn't perfect, certainly has it's flaws - Comparing classes against one another is one of those. It is very good at comparing stat weights or rotation within a spec right now, however. Mage modules are working pretty well right now from everything I've been reading in their logs minus the frost module which is buggy right now.

For every tweak I test in SimC I also test it on a training dummy to see if it matches up to what I see in SimC. So far it's right on the money in terms of patterns, accounting for player error of course.

It's just my opinion though - I think people get too hung up on SimC to be honest. If I post results saying haste is mathematically superior to mastery single target by a negligible amount, I'm not saying people who stack mastery are playing wrong. When stats like that are nearly equal both have their benefits. I prefer mastery stacking when I play arcane for example.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
8200
12/06/2012 11:49 AMPosted by Mumrit
Are you talking about the SimCraft results? Mage modules are broken right now, I wouldn't trust anything coming out of there until it gets updated.

SimC isn't perfect, certainly has it's flaws - Comparing classes against one another is one of those. It is very good at comparing stat weights or rotation within a spec right now, however. Mage modules are working pretty well right now from everything I've been reading in their logs minus the frost module which is buggy right now.

For every tweak I test in SimC I also test it on a training dummy to see if it matches up to what I see in SimC. So far it's right on the money in terms of patterns, accounting for player error of course.

It's just my opinion though - I think people get too hung up on SimC to be honest. If I post results saying haste is mathematically superior to mastery single target by a negligible amount, I'm not saying people who stack mastery are playing wrong. When stats like that are nearly equal both have their benefits. I prefer mastery stacking when I play arcane for example.


It had me valuing Haste at 1.6 to mastery at 1.0. That's a pretty big difference, and counter to everything I've heard about arcane stat weights. Of course, I think there's a lot of misinformation and myths regarding the spec because basically no one played it before last Thursday.
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90 Troll Mage
9100
@wexler

I am running a modified rotation strategy based off of what Blatty is currently testing. You can watch his stream on twitch.tv/blatty. I highly recommend it. I only started raiding arcane three days ago but I am already seeing huge promise in the spec.

Haste vs. Mastery
Haste is easier on the player, mastery is elite mode (words of blatty). Haste stacking is much more friendly on mana management (easier). Yes haste increases mana regen as well as cast time but this also means that when you missile/scorch weave/are moving you are regenning faster. Missile & cost practically no mana so overall your regen will increase with haste. Mastery has a higher skill curve. You have to be confident with your abilities to manage mana. Mastery stacking will give you a massive advantage on AOE packs and if done properly on single target as well. If you stack mastery then you have to commit to non movement. You step out of rop and your mana will drop like a rock. This means knowing the fight mechanics well enough that you can anticipate and pre-plan ROP placement. Get used to not just running between rops but actually using blazing speed to minimize time outside of mana regen. This is why I think arcane is so much fun. There are very few fights in this expansion that you get to plan a RoP and turret the entire fight.

"Rotation"
If you have the two set bonus then you want to keep 6 stacks up as long as possible. This means being mindful of the buff CD and doing proper stack maintenance. I dropped slow/brilliant mana gems for arcane explosion glyph and picked up arcane explosion. If your stacks are about to drop you can clip an arcane missile (not ideal) or arcane explosion. This is critical on the first two bosses in HOF where there 5-8 seconds of not being able to cast on the boss. Attenuation for example on vizok = dodge and spam scorch then arcane explosion right before stacks drop.

I try not to allow my mana to drop below 90%. This means at 6 stacks and 100% mana I can arcane blast twice before starting my weave. When I am weaving I cast blast then missile, blast then missile, blast then missile. If I do not have missiles I cast blast then scorch, blast then scorch. With my current gear set up, while standing in RoP, casting blast then mana filler nets me positive mana and eventually I can cast two blasts again then go back into weave.

You do not want to dip below 80% ever. This is very bad. In the current build I'm testing I do not concern myself with haste break points. Your base haste on gear is enough to get you past the first breakpoint.

Hope this helps.
Edited by Gravitation on 12/6/2012 12:28 PM PST
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