Arcane - Scorch Weaving vs. Stack Dropping

90 Human Mage
14515
It had me valuing Haste at 1.6 to mastery at 1.0. That's a pretty big difference, and counter to everything I've heard about arcane stat weights. Of course, I think there's a lot of misinformation and myths regarding the spec because basically no one played it before last Thursday.

The stat weights you're citing were the ones coming out of beta via SimC. It was designed out of the gate to have each spec value a different stat - Frost would be haste, arcane would be mastery, and fire would be crit. Changes have altered those however. No idea if that's intentional or not.

The mana cost reduction is what pushed haste over mastery for arcane. Now that mana is much more abundant for the spec it's no longer as important to get the most bang for your mana buck via mastery stacking.

0.6 isn't a difference I've been able to reproduce. At most I think I've gotten 0.3, with the difference decreasing the higher my iLevel becomes. With the BIS T14H profile (which still has mastery stacked so may need to be looked at) the stat weights are nearly identical for haste/mastery in certain conditions single target.
Edited by Mumrit on 12/6/2012 12:24 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Mage
0
Yeah I learned a lot from that Blatty stream yesterday. I noticed you are at about the same haste level as Blatty was yesterday. Is that something you planned for (4200 haste) or is that where you ended up after reforging everything to mastery? Also what armor do you use?

I know this is heretical, but have you tried Invo with Arcane and the oldschool burn-evo strat? I was talking about mage rotation with some people and someone asked about that. I said that everything I read said it sucked and so on. But I decided to give it a go on the old dummy and I wasn't drastically underperforming compared to my haste-heavy keep stacks rotation. I was wondering how it would scale with mastery instead of haste.

12/06/2012 12:22 PMPosted by Mumrit
It had me valuing Haste at 1.6 to mastery at 1.0. That's a pretty big difference, and counter to everything I've heard about arcane stat weights. Of course, I think there's a lot of misinformation and myths regarding the spec because basically no one played it before last Thursday.

The stat weights you're citing were the ones coming out of beta via SimC. It was designed out of the gate to have each spec value a different stat - Frost would be haste, arcane would be mastery, and fire would be crit. Changes have altered those however. No idea if that's intentional or not.

The mana cost reduction is what pushed haste over mastery for arcane. Now that mana is much more abundant for the spec it's no longer as important to get the most bang for your mana buck via mastery stacking.

0.6 isn't a difference I've been able to reproduce. At most I think I've gotten 0.3, with the difference decreasing the higher my iLevel becomes. With the BIS T14H profile (which still has mastery stacked so may need to be looked at) the stat weights are nearly identical for haste/mastery in certain conditions single target.


No the stat weights I'm citing came from me running a 10k iteration scale sim yesterday with version 510-5
Edited by Wexler on 12/6/2012 12:30 PM PST
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90 Human Mage
14515
12/06/2012 12:29 PMPosted by Wexler
No the stat weights I'm citing came from me running a 10k iteration scale sim yesterday with version 510-5

Sorry for the confusion, I was speaking about the stat weights for "mastery > haste" that was true prior to the changes to mana cost on charges.
Edited by Mumrit on 12/6/2012 12:47 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Mage
0
12/06/2012 12:46 PMPosted by Mumrit
No the stat weights I'm citing came from me running a 10k iteration scale sim yesterday with version 510-5

Sorry for the confusion, I was speaking about the stat weights for "mastery > haste" that was true prior to the changes to mana cost on charges.


Oh I see what you mean. So you're saying that if I went in and completely reforged and regemmed for mastery right now I'd get about the same results DPS wise that I'm getting under heavy haste?

Does anyone know how accurate SimC is w/r/t stat weights right now? If it's way off is there another stat weight source anywhere else?
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90 Troll Mage
9100
@wexler

I do not reforge for haste at all. That is the result of my gear.

Full mana all of the time is the new play style of Arcane so dropping below 80% is very bad in my opinion. I could be wrong but it seems that burn/conserve would be a big drop in damage.

I agree with mumrit, the difference between haste + mastery on a stand still patchwork style fight is marginal at best. Player skill will account for a greater disparity. But you have to take into account encounter mechanics. Stacking haste will allow you to move around more which makes it an easier play style. If on the other hand you can plant yourself and anticipate mechanics then you will do far more damage with mastery.

I would suggest starting with haste and when you are comfortable with the spec switch over to mastery.
Edited by Gravitation on 12/6/2012 1:16 PM PST
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90 Human Mage
14515
Oh I see what you mean. So you're saying that if I went in and completely reforged and regemmed for mastery right now I'd get about the same results DPS wise that I'm getting under heavy haste?

You'd be very close single target. Honestly with how close the two stat weights are you're more than likely going to see a bigger DPS increase playing with the one you're more comfortable with, as you'll be making fewer mistakes.

Does anyone know how accurate SimC is w/r/t stat weights right now? If it's way off is there another stat weight source anywhere else?

It's the most accurate tool we have at the moment. Unfortunately I'm unaware of any other projects dedicated to doing what it does. Websites that you see (Such as Mr. Robot) use values they've obtained from SimC. Something to keep in mind as well is that stat weights shift constantly, though generally stay in the same order. Stat weights that you get from Mr Robot for example are guaranteed to not match the actual value of your stat weights and are just a best guess that they do built from whatever profiles they use.

There is always the possibility that there's a bug inside SimC that causes certain things to go wonky and mess up stat weights, but from personal experience testing arcane in game and from reading the logs it spits out, I don't have any reason to assume that's happening with arcane in this case.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
0
Grav tell me what armor you are using!!!!

Also if the difference between haste and mastery is negligible damage-wise, why wouldn't you pick the spec that allows you more movement and more of a margin for error. If you are saying you are doing tons more damage mastery-forged, then the difference there is not negligible.
Edited by Wexler on 12/6/2012 1:21 PM PST
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90 Human Mage
14515
Also if the difference between haste and mastery is negligible damage-wise, why wouldn't you pick the spec that allows you more movement and more of a margin for error. If you are saying you are doing tons more damage mastery-forged, then the difference there is not negligible.

The stat weights don't shift around much no matter which sim you run. (Light movement, heavy movement, helter skelter.) Neither one really gives you an added advantage in movement fights.

Personally I like mastery stacking more than haste because I enjoy looking at big numbers.

As an aside, arcane with scorch isn't nearly as bad on movement phases as people make it out to be - But that's for another thread.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
0
So basically the difference is

Haste heavy: Less scorching, but smaller AB hits

Mastery heavy: More scorching, but bigger AB hits.

And those work out to be about even?
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90 Human Mage
14515
So basically the difference is

Haste heavy: Less scorching, but smaller AB hits

Mastery heavy: More scorching, but bigger AB hits.

And those work out to be about even?


In theory the decrease in your casts you see in haste rating should scale parallel to the amount of mana you gain (untested), so both will see the same amount of AB casts relative to scorch casts.

But yes, it's very close to even DPS wise with a very slight edge going to haste.

I'm rerunning my sims tonight now that I'm reforged for haste. My iLevel hasn't changed, so the results should show us how the mastery/mage armor work out against haste/frost armor. The results will be in my arcane theorycrafting thread on the damage forums later tonight.
------------
A bit more math to throw into the discussion on armors:

Frost Armor = 7% haste * 425.0 rating = 2975 rating
Mage Armor = 3000 rating

Assuming mastery's weight is 1:

2975 * HasteWeight = 3000
HasteWeight = 1.0084033613445378151260504201681

Once haste is 0.009% better than mastery, frost armor takes the lead.
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90 Troll Mage
9100
@Wexler

Always use Mage Armor.

There is a point where you have to stop nerding out on theorycraft and defer to experience. The sims are going to show you a negligible difference between haste and mastery. I do not trust sims 100%. There is a definite difference between mastery and haste and it comes down to play style.

Haste allows you to regen mana faster during and in between casts. Haste allows you to get more casts in but the casts hit for less... this means you have more mobility. If you take an average player and place them in haste and then mastery you will see that with haste their dps is higher. If you take a player like Blatty who stacks mastery vs stacking haste you will see a significant dps increase, 5k+. This is because Blatty knows the boss encounters in and out. He knows when he can cast and when he has to move. He also knows when and where to place RoP.

The difference is...

Haste - lots of casts but don't hit as hard (can move a little more)
Mastery - fewer casts but hits hard (minimal movement is critical)

Anyone who thinks this does not lead to a difference in play style is wrong.

Try both and see which one you prefer.
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90 Human Mage
14515
12/06/2012 02:21 PMPosted by Gravitation
If you take an average player and place them in haste and then mastery you will see that with haste their dps is higher. If you take a player like Blatty who stacks mastery vs stacking haste you will see a significant dps increase, 5k+.

There isn't any real data to support this. World of Logs has several haste stacked mages ranking in the top ten fight to fight (as well as an even number of mastery stacked mages.)

Try both and see which one you prefer.

This is really what should decide it for people at this stage.
Edited by Mumrit on 12/7/2012 7:15 AM PST
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90 Troll Mage
13565
i499 mage I perfer mastery

Haste decreases cast time of all spells and increases DoT ticking speeds. In a raid or group with the +5% Haste buff, you need 3039 Haste Rating on your gear to obtain +1 tick on Living Bomb. This is the minimum amount of Haste for an Arcane Mage. Haste beyond this amount is on par with Mastery.

Intellect > Spell Hit (15%) > Haste (Breakpoint) > Mastery = Haste (Past Breakpoint) > Crit
Edited by Bulge on 12/7/2012 8:37 AM PST
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90 Human Mage
11775
i499 mage I perfer mastery

Haste decreases cast time of all spells and increases DoT ticking speeds. In a raid or group with the +5% Haste buff, you need 3039 Haste Rating on your gear to obtain +1 tick on Living Bomb. This is the minimum amount of Haste for an Arcane Mage. Haste beyond this amount is on par with Mastery.

Intellect > Spell Hit (15%) > Haste (Breakpoint) > Mastery = Haste (Past Breakpoint) > Crit


Can you explain how you got the haste breakpoint of 3039? I am viewing the haste breakpoint as 3056, which although is NOT a big difference, but it gets you closer to the 9% mark and is just as easy to obtain.

8.94% vs 8.99%

unless my conversions are incorrect. 340 points per % ?
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90 Human Mage
14515
12/07/2012 09:23 AMPosted by Dlm
unless my conversions are incorrect. 340 points per % ?

425 per %
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90 Human Mage
11775
Ok that makes more sense then. I know that 300 rating for mastery gives arcane 1%, but what haste is needed for the extra tick on nether tempest? Is that 3039 as well?
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90 Human Mage
14515
4.17% haste: 13 ticks in 12.48 seconds
12.5% haste: 14 ticks in 12.44 seconds
20.84% haste: 15 ticks in 12.41 seconds
29.17% haste: 16 ticks in 12.39 seconds
37.5% haste: 17 ticks in 12.36 seconds

Chart I pulled from another forum.

http://www.totemspot.com/vb/entry.php?b=44

That's an easier to read chart
Edited by Mumrit on 12/7/2012 10:17 AM PST
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90 Human Mage
11775
Ok. So it's 3056 for the extra tick of nether tempest. hmmz
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90 Draenei Mage
9460
Just bumping so I can get back to this thread later. Need to crunch some numbers.
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90 Undead Mage
14685
12/05/2012 11:20 AMPosted by Batar
Blatty is raiding right now testing scorch weaving and is crushing it. Just ranked 6th overall on heroic Zor'lok 25m.


Interesting that 2 spots above blatty is a fire mage from today.


And that Fire Mage is probably geared to the hilt, which is what fire needs at this stage before it is viable.
Next tier, I expect to see more Fire Mages as our crit grows, unless the set bonuses blow for Fire on purpose to keep Fire crit under control.
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