Mages, post-Fire nerf: show us your parses

90 Human Mage
8870
12/07/2012 10:27 AMPosted by Lhivera
Ideally, we wind up in a situation where everybody is using the spec they want to use, rather than feeling forced into or out of any particular spec.


So that being said they need to make arcane viable for high movement fights, increase fire and frost dps and revamp the tier six talents. gg let’s do it! Now not to beat a dead horse or anything but while we wait for all this, can we hotfix the hotfix, so fire is again a viable spec for raiding? :P
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17255
12/07/2012 10:27 AMPosted by Lhivera
As I said, if we wind up in a situation where only 5% of players are using Fire, then it seems clear that they've plunged Fire from too high to too low relative to the other two specs. Ideally, we wind up in a situation where everybody is using the spec they want to use, rather than feeling forced into or out of any particular spec.


I think it is far beyond clear to everyone, except perhaps the trolling hunter, that they have indeed plunged fire too low.

And I don't think we need to wait until only 5% of players are using fire to come to this conclusion.

I can tell you right now, I likely won't switch. I have now tried out both arcane and frost as my offspecs. As for frost, I have literally never tried it until a couple of days ago. It is pretty fun, but the learning curve is going to be terrible to say the least. We are a completely mediocre 10 man guild, and only just now cleared MSV normals. We can't really afford the learning curve it would require for me to figure out frost and be not-terrible.

As for arcane, I used to play it, but haven't touched the spec since maybe the middle of firelands. I never attempted it on the beta, so this week was the first time I tried it out.

And I can't tell you how much I hate it. I realize they think they were "improving" the spec and attempting to make it more "interesting" or something, but I think the changes are awful, and make no sense. Add to that the pure torture that is dealing with Rune of Power, and I just don't want to switch. To be honest, I wonder how much of the low number of people raiding as arcane had to do with the spec being kind of unbearable.
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90 Pandaren Mage
11150
Fire's mean and median numbers have certainly declined sharply since Wednesday morning.

Also of interest: this is the first time I've loaded Raidbots to find that there were enough parses for Arcane and Frost to have the specs enabled by default on the display.


Also interesting that the trend line is identical for the Top 100 and All Parses data sets.

I probably won't switch specs either. Fire is awesome fun when the crits are flowing and deadly frustrating when they are not. I wasn't loving mage play anyway due to the movement restrictions so I'll just limp along and keep chasing crit rating as best I can until I can finish leveling my lock and hunter alts and figure out which of them I enjoy the most.
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69 Worgen Warrior
0


Sure - but because they're actually posted, we (players) are able to look at them and see if they legitimately support the poster's argument.

My suspicion since the nerf has been that the truth lies between the two extremes: that the nerf was too harsh, but not nearly as devastating as some players claim. I don't imagine that this thread will provide a definitive answer, but it should do a better job of pointing us in the right direction than threads full of claims with no data whatsoever.


I don't know what to say anymore, Lhiv. You are a respected theorycrafter - by myself and others. You have done some really good work for mages. I have defended your lack of raiding experience in the past, and for the most part, the things you comment on, it truly is irrelevant. This is not one of those times. I'm sorry.

I am a good player. I play with other good players. I can see exactly what the nerfs did in practice. Not just theory, but practice. I worked my !@# off trying to push as much dps as I possibly could this past week. I dug in and pushed as hard as I could to prove to myself that I can still be fire for progression. I pushed myself to do the best I absolutely could, because I don't want to play arcane. I don't like it. I find it frustrating on movement heavy fights (Lei Shi?). And frost just isn't a good fit for me. I tried, oh lord I tried. I did not suddenly become inept at playing fire. Nothing changed but what was changed by Blizzard. And from one week to the next, I go from fighting it out with some of the best players WoW has to offer for top dps spot to embarrassing myself over and over. Pull after pull.

Next week, I am an arcane mage.

The truth is, and this is fact, if *anything* fire could have used a SP coefficient nerf on pyro and a reversion of combustion to pre 5.1 levels. Something that would have at *most* put them middle of the pack. At most. Mages bring 1 thing to a raid this tier - damage. We don't have that damage, we're a hindrance and not a help. The nerf that was handed out not only was devastating to fire mage's damage in a really competitive raid group, but absolutely destroyed the spec's flow. Did it hinder the top end mages? The one's parsing those RNG boosted parses that piss people off so much? A bit, yep. But those parses will still happen. But it absolutely ran over the undergeared mages. It squarely placed the entry level for the spec to be consistently competitive out of the reach of 90% of the player base.

I know you're trying to take an objective view of the class. I know you're trying to see the big picture and where this will lead to down the road. However, I'm not raiding "down the road". I'm raiding right now. Here. Now. Today.


Well perhaps instead of attacking someone whom you acknowledge IS a good theorycrafter, you could look at yourself in the mirror and question whether you are truly as talented as those around you or whether the OP nature of the fire spec was artificially floating you way above your specific skill level. Perhaps someone MORE gifted than you does exist and you were just fooled by the OP nature of the spec you chose.
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69 Worgen Warrior
0
Whatever.

GC's response is stupid. So instead of actually responding to the issue (blizzard over-nerfed fire mages), he focuses lazer-like on the nature of the adjective used to describe the nerf.

His tweet, and your post, make it sound like they are actually interested in seeing logs. Yet another lie.


See, posts like yours...vitriol and all in blind ignorance to the actual effects of the nerf dont help. You repeatedly state that the nerf was too harsh...but you fail TIME AND TIME AGAIN to provide any proof that this is the case. The point of this post is to shut people like you up and get you to provide actual data to support your claims. But that concept flew right over your head, didn't it? Post your logs or just shut your pie hole.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
12/07/2012 11:34 AMPosted by Oaklander
See, posts like yours...vitriol and all in blind ignorance to the actual effects of the nerf dont help. You repeatedly state that the nerf was too harsh...but you fail TIME AND TIME AGAIN to provide any proof that this is the case. The point of this post is to shut people like you up and get you to provide actual data to support your claims. But that concept flew right over your head, didn't it? Post your logs or just shut your pie hole.


Plenty of logs and aggregate data have been posted already.
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90 Draenei Mage
11900
12/07/2012 10:27 AMPosted by Lhivera
As I said, if we wind up in a situation where only 5% of players are using Fire, then it seems clear that they've plunged Fire from too high to too low relative to the other two specs. Ideally, we wind up in a situation where everybody is using the spec they want to use, rather than feeling forced into or out of any particular spec.


Why should the percentage of players using Fire have to drop to that degree when it's obvious the DPS numbers themselves have taken a massive nose dive. I thought being forced to play a spec you hate just to be competitive was exactly what Blizzard was trying to get away from?
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17255
See, posts like yours...vitriol and all in blind ignorance to the actual effects of the nerf dont help. You repeatedly state that the nerf was too harsh...but you fail TIME AND TIME AGAIN to provide any proof that this is the case. The point of this post is to shut people like you up and get you to provide actual data to support your claims. But that concept flew right over your head, didn't it? Post your logs or just shut your pie hole.


Perhaps you missed the part of this thread several pages back where Lhiv admitted that blizzard has no need for or interest in WoL parses aggregated in a thread like this (they have their own internal data), and that instead the purpose of this thread was to try to have players begin looking at what the actual data was, in an attempt to see the exact nature and scope of the nerf.

We now have an answer to that: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10N/all/7/60/default/#7fnnv

Only trolls or people who aren't very bright would still claim this isn't an over-nerf.

Next time I need the opinion of a level 20 warrior about my actual experience raiding as fire; about my direct experience with how these nerfs affect my damage and my gameplay; or about what would be "helpful", I'll be sure to let you know.
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90 Worgen Hunter
9675
12/07/2012 08:13 AMPosted by Hiroran
And that's the opposite of what I said because that's not what he was describing or what I was describing. That's not what Fire Mages say is their issue as it's not their issue. Damage increases rapidly with crit to start and then slows down. That's what the first half of -x^2 does. The problem with using that as a guide is that after it peaks, it starts to decrease. Hence, again, why he's looking for logarithmic, not quadratic. No quadratic function I can think of describes what y = log3(x) + 2 does, which is roughly the curve mages are looking at. Go graph it, then graph a quadratic that does the same thing and come back here. Thanks.


Once again none of that matters to the fact that you said

12/07/2012 06:46 AMPosted by Peverell
Quadratic means that your damage spikes quickly as crit increases until a point where your damage actually starts to decrease as you increase crit even further


When, as I have shown 2 times, it does not.

Whether your main argument was right or not doesnt' matter. I am simply pointing out that the start of your argument was based on something false.


Except not. What I described IS a specific quadratic function. There are many kinds. There are kinds that would have mage damage going to infinity as crit increases or going to negative infinity as crit increases.

You know exactly nothing about algebra.
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90 Worgen Hunter
9675
As I said, if we wind up in a situation where only 5% of players are using Fire, then it seems clear that they've plunged Fire from too high to too low relative to the other two specs. Ideally, we wind up in a situation where everybody is using the spec they want to use, rather than feeling forced into or out of any particular spec.


I think it is far beyond clear to everyone, except perhaps the trolling hunter, that they have indeed plunged fire too low.

And I don't think we need to wait until only 5% of players are using fire to come to this conclusion.

I can tell you right now, I likely won't switch. I have now tried out both arcane and frost as my offspecs. As for frost, I have literally never tried it until a couple of days ago. It is pretty fun, but the learning curve is going to be terrible to say the least. We are a completely mediocre 10 man guild, and only just now cleared MSV normals. We can't really afford the learning curve it would require for me to figure out frost and be not-terrible.

As for arcane, I used to play it, but haven't touched the spec since maybe the middle of firelands. I never attempted it on the beta, so this week was the first time I tried it out.

And I can't tell you how much I hate it. I realize they think they were "improving" the spec and attempting to make it more "interesting" or something, but I think the changes are awful, and make no sense. Add to that the pure torture that is dealing with Rune of Power, and I just don't want to switch. To be honest, I wonder how much of the low number of people raiding as arcane had to do with the spec being kind of unbearable.


If Fire used to do 10,000,000 DPS and Frost did 5,000,000 DPS, Fire would have been used almost exclusively (assuming every other spec/class is still doing their current levels of damage). They could then nerf Fire down to 1,000,000 DPS and pretty much no one would actually play it. Would that mean they nerfed it too far even if it were still about 10 times better than any other spec?

Even ignoring the obvious problems with your logic (which is horrendous), you all have made it quite clear that fire is no longer very fun and can be incredibly frustrating. If fire is significantly less fun than frost, it could be roughly the same quality (or better) and still have almost no one playing it.

In short, the number of people playing a spec has almost nothing to do with its strength compared to OTHER CLASSES, which is all that really matters, and isn't even a good indicator of its strength within one class.
Edited by Peverell on 12/7/2012 12:18 PM PST
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90 Worgen Hunter
9675
12/07/2012 10:02 AMPosted by Taymage
Nah, I give a !@#$ about proving idiots wrong. I don't care even slightly about the balance of the game in PvE and barely care in PvP.


You, a hunter who doesn't even PvE, have been trolling every single mage thread over and over and over for a week. Go away.


Doesn't this say more about the Mages? Why are there multiple, nowhere near capped threads about the exact same thing on an absurdly slow moving board like the damage dealing forum? If you whiny fools stopped making multiple threads, I'd only have to point out how idiotic you're being in one thread instead of "every single" one of them.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
...


Got some mage parses to post? How about a discussion of said parses? No? Then your posts are not on-topic. It doesn't matter either way because you're really obviously a troll. Stop posting in a thread just because an MVP posted in it and you desperately need to see your name appear as many times as possible.
Edited by Mahourai on 12/7/2012 12:18 PM PST
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90 Troll Mage
15790
12/07/2012 12:10 PMPosted by Peverell
Except not. What I described IS a specific quadratic function


No what you went on to describe is a specific quadratic function. But you made the statement that all quadratic fuctions start decreasing at higher values.

If you look at my first post to you, you would see I mentioned that the manner that you described may be one possible type of quadratic function but it is not every type.

Either way though like I said earlier I give it 1-3 attempts and then give up if someone doesn't want to listen. Have a good day Peverell
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90 Worgen Hunter
9675
Except not. What I described IS a specific quadratic function


No what you went on to describe is a specific quadratic function. But you made the statement that all quadratic fuctions start decreasing at higher values.

If you look at my first post to you, you would see I mentioned that the manner that you described may be one possible type of quadratic function but it is not every type.

Either way though like I said earlier I give it 1-3 attempts and then give up if someone doesn't want to listen. Have a good day Peverell


Tell me where I said this? Where did I say ALL quadratic functions do that? Hmmmm?

Here's what happened. He said Mage damage demonstrates a quadratic curve that makes it difficult to balance. NO quadratic function demonstrates what he described. I assumed he was speaking of the only quadratic function that even sort of curves the way you all are describing and explained why that doesn't actually fit with how Mages scale. I then, correctly, explained why what you're describing is a logarithmic curve.

Again, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. You're just in a rage over your nerf. It's causing you to see what you want to see. Had I, the terrible Hunter troll who's correctly pointing out why you guys are crying about nothing (unless you're only speaking to fun, which is a valid complaint), said it was a quadratic curve and been corrected in EXACTLY the same way by the mage, you'd be saying "NAH HE DIDNT SAY ALL CURVES BRAH." That's what children do.
Edited by Peverell on 12/7/2012 12:25 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
12/07/2012 12:20 PMPosted by Peverell
...


Great post. Reported. Hopefully your zest for trolling an MVP thread will reward you suitably.
Edited by Mahourai on 12/7/2012 12:26 PM PST
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90 Tauren Monk
11320
12/07/2012 11:43 AMPosted by Mahourai
See, posts like yours...vitriol and all in blind ignorance to the actual effects of the nerf dont help. You repeatedly state that the nerf was too harsh...but you fail TIME AND TIME AGAIN to provide any proof that this is the case. The point of this post is to shut people like you up and get you to provide actual data to support your claims. But that concept flew right over your head, didn't it? Post your logs or just shut your pie hole.


Plenty of logs and aggregate data have been posted already.


Reading is fundamental for everyone but trolls, apparently.
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90 Worgen Hunter
9675
12/07/2012 12:24 PMPosted by Mahourai
...


Great post. Reported. Stop !@#$ting up the thread.


The thread is already !@#$ed by your horrible logic and terrible use of data.

"Guyz I parsed lower than last week on one fight with a highly variable spec that was doing significantly more damage than pretty much every other class/spec before the spec was nerfed. WE BROKEN DANKS BLIZZ GUN REROLL NOW."

That's this entire thread. Try comparing a large sampling of parses to other classes.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17255
12/07/2012 12:27 PMPosted by Peverell
Try comparing a large sampling of parses to other classes.


http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10N/all/7/60/default/#7fnnv
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90 Pandaren Mage
11150
12/07/2012 12:29 PMPosted by Taymage
Try comparing a large sampling of parses to other classes.


http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10N/all/7/60/default/#7fnnv


You're quite the optimist. He's ignored all the previous posts of that same link in this thread.
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