Mages, post-Fire nerf: show us your parses

You pretty much nailed it mumrit, I feel like they're just trying to be ridiculous to draw it out so mages start to forget it ever happened.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
To be fair, the doublespeak is probably in preparation to buff Fire.
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75 Draenei Death Knight
1875
12/07/2012 09:44 PMPosted by Mahourai
To be fair, the doublespeak is probably in preparation to buff Fire

HA! I wish.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
12/07/2012 09:44 PMPosted by Renaat
To be fair, the doublespeak is probably in preparation to buff Fire

HA! I wish.


The consensus is quite clearly "Fire needed a nerf, just not one this punishing.", weird statements on Twitter notwithstanding.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17295
@Mumrit, you are exactly right. It's complete gibberish.

At this point I wouldn't be surprised to see a tweet insisting blizzard has data indicating the Sun actually rises in the west.
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90 Pandaren Mage
12305
I am not the best player in my guild but I can safely say I pulled my weight and did fine on every encounter up to the nerf. I've played fire for years (with the exception of frost for dailies and arcane for Firelands) so I know my way around the spec.

Myself and the other Mage who is miles better than I were both threatened with being sat because we were so low on damage. The only reason we got to stay was because the people we would be sat for were awful, awful dps. We're being threatened with being sat because none of our specs can pull their weight on a lot of these fights. We both switched to frost for Wind Lord (or whatever the 4th boss of HoF's name is) for the Aoe capabilities so we could ice lance for days.

I don't understand how so many non mages are saying it was deserved because "well MY class got nerfed so yours should too!" I would never wish a nerf upon another class, no matter how much dps they're doing. I'm mad jealous of our dps monk who has crazy damage, but I'd never wish for his spec to be nerfed.

The critical mass nerf needs to be removed or at least put at a higher percent than 1.25 and the combust nerf needs SOMETHING. Unless I get a ridiculous pyroblast crit with potions + hero + all buffs at the beginning, my combusts hit for cataclysm tier of damage. I've purposely sat myself out of fights to try and fix my damage but it's not happening. I was bottom of the barrel with the other Mage on almost every Garalon attempt, whereas last week we were 2-5th in 25m. I tried Arcane, I tried Frost, I tried full Mastery Fire for hilarity, and nothing is working. Our level 90 talents leave us immobile as hell (with the exception of Garalon since you can spam IW as there is damage always going out) yet warlocks get a spell to sacrifice a pet and have certain spells do increased damage at all times? What kind of BS is that? Almost every class/spec has a level 90 talent that doesn't require them to stand there on top of a tiny circle or channel a 5 second cast that could potentially screw them out of dps due to having to move.

I don't ever whine or complain on the mage or dps forums, but this is just insane and unfair.

Please excuse the wall of text, I just am sdagfhsdgh ugh
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90 Troll Mage
11970
12/07/2012 06:03 PMPosted by Nert
Your numbers are down from the previous week.


after a nerf, they are supposed to be. but even that is not necessarily true, my heroic stone guard for example, went up 11k dps this week from last. good rng? less mistakes and better play? better gear?
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90 Human Mage
17075
Mumrit nailed it. Not a single one of GC's tweets demonstrates any interest in or understanding of the problem. His know-nothing attitude is disgraceful.

Can I suggest Hypothesis 3, Lhiv? GC just doesn't want to know. He figures the scaling will work itself out by the end of the expansion, so for the time being he can avoid admitting, to himself as much as to anyone else, how badly he screwed the pooch on this one.
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90 Undead Mage
11870
12/07/2012 09:46 PMPosted by Mahourai

HA! I wish.


The consensus is quite clearly "Fire needed a nerf, just not one this punishing.", weird statements on Twitter notwithstanding.


Ghostcrawler via Twitter (cause you can't get him to show up on his own company's website - we gotta go to a 3rd party to hear from him)

Not seeing Fire on bottom. Happy where Fire is so far. Many mages trying Arcane and Frost, skewing results of sites like raidbots.


I am just speechless.

He really should have someone read his tweets. This is the kind of crap I'd expect from the cast of the Jersey Shore - not the Lead Systems Designer of a multi-billion dollar a year company.

The sad thing is, since Beta, I don't recall him putting in a single appearance on his own company's website. Has he even done a blog since 5.0.4 dropped?

Why is it that I need to resort to a 3rd party program to see what the guy running the show here has to say about this stuff?
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90 Undead Mage
11870
Your numbers are down from the previous week.


after a nerf, they are supposed to be. but even that is not necessarily true, my heroic stone guard for example, went up 11k dps this week from last. good rng? less mistakes and better play? better gear?


Better gear, and a higher crit (luck) rate. Look at your stone guard kill from before 5.1. You had a 38% crit rate on fireball. This past week, you were at 46% - incidentally, to "average" that 46% you need to have 39.8% crit rate raid buffed. You don't, but perhaps in t15 you will? :)

This is what I'm talking about in regards to mages still putting up top parses. Nothing has changed for that. It's still an RNG crap shoot, which is why crying about how fire mages are all over WoL is complete and utter bull. They will always be all over WoL - at least until they make every fight like wind lord, where the top mage is #555.

Edit: Double quote ft...w? :(
Edited by Howmanylichs on 12/7/2012 10:36 PM PST
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90 Troll Mage
11970


after a nerf, they are supposed to be. but even that is not necessarily true, my heroic stone guard for example, went up 11k dps this week from last. good rng? less mistakes and better play? better gear?


Better gear, and a higher crit (luck) rate. Look at your stone guard kill from before 5.1. You had a 38% crit rate on fireball. This past week, you were at 46% - incidentally, to "average" that 46% you need to have 39.8% crit rate raid buffed. You don't, but perhaps in t15 you will? :)

This is what I'm talking about in regards to mages still putting up top parses. Nothing has changed for that. It's still an RNG crap shoot, which is why crying about how fire mages are all over WoL is complete and utter bull. They will always be all over WoL - at least until they make every fight like wind lord, where the top mage is #555.

Edit: Double quote ft...w? :(


with my procs and a potion, cm is putting me around 48% crit, and with five of the intellect procs to choose from, with any given 2 or 3 overlapping would leave me around 42-44% crit so really is 46% crit that inconceivable?

and with regard to good rng and top parses, isn't that the way it has always been with any given class or spec?

i am simply blown away by how many there are who refuse to accept that fire can still parse among our good old OP days after these "account canceling, forced respeccing, nonviable benching" nerfs. perhaps my recent 67th rank should have been much higher hadn't the nerf been so drastic, but it wasnt, and it is still respectable damage output nonetheless.
Edited by Elpadlol on 12/7/2012 11:33 PM PST
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1 Troll Rogue
0
Arcane's trending up started @ 5.1 patch, not @ fire nerf hotfix.

Notice... http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10N/all/7/60/default/#7fnnv

This makes the statement where arcane's upward trend starts @ fire's hotfix nerf, unsubstantiated.

At this point, I've lost both respect and hope.
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90 Worgen Mage
5875
Although this was a great RNG run for me it's but it's still awfully low on a fight that's traditionally good to fmages. Keep in mind the three above me are several ilevel behind me.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-waeqy0uoianylx7g/sum/damageDone/?s=3401&e=3872
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12/07/2012 05:42 PMPosted by Kaikou
I'm starting to think more and more that these nerfs were just a sneaky tactic to get mages to diversify their raiding specs.


If this was the goal the wanted to set out on, they should have made frost and arcane as entertaining as fire used to be.

12/07/2012 07:49 PMPosted by Lhivera
Honestly, I'm at the point right now where I just want to watch the data for a couple of weeks.


Unnacceptable, considering we waited the week that GC asked us to wait, and then followed it up with even more sidestep-age.

This whole thing just feels silly. Like for every point there's a cop out.

Person A: We're now last!
Person B: Let's wait a week and see

Person A: Ok, it's a week later, and we're still last
Person B: I'm going to need to see some parses

Person A: Here's a link to all of the parses.
Person B: Well what you're seeing is not many people playing that spec.

Person A: But that spec has the most parses out of the three.
Person B: Well all of the good players are playing another spec.

Person A: But that's crazy.
Person B: Just look at arcane! It received no buffs yet it's spiking!

Person A: But it did receive buffs.
Person B: In 5.1

Person A: But that was only 3 days before you nerfed the spec.
Person B: We're just not seeing fire's numbers as low.

Honestly it's just been frustrating to play a mage this expansion. The deafening silence on our level 90 talents, our (now) best spec being mechanically broken, and the constant head-scratching statements about our class on twitter.


We have a phrase for this in my guild.

It's

/glasses

Cognitive Dissonance

Cognitive dissonance is a discomfort caused by holding conflicting ideas simultaneously. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance. They do this by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and actions. Dissonance is also reduced by justifying, blaming, and denying. The phrase was coined by Leon Festinger in his 1956 book When Prophecy Fails, which chronicled the followers of a UFO cult as reality clashed with their fervent beliefs.

So yeah.
Edited by Seebach on 12/7/2012 11:41 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Mage
6075
12/07/2012 11:29 PMPosted by Freemarket
Arcane's trending up started @ 5.1 patch, not @ fire nerf hotfix.


I think the fact that all of the top tier raiders are moving away from fire illustrates it's inherent "!@#$iness" so to speak.

Why would there be such a massive migration on fights where arcane doesn't excel if fire was balanced?
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
Honestly, I'm at the point right now where I just want to watch the data for a couple of weeks.


Unnacceptable, considering we waited the week that GC asked us to wait, and then followed it up with even more sidestep-age.


This is why I very carefully said "I want to" and not "I want everyone to." I'm speaking purely for myself there.

________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium
Edited by Lhivera on 12/8/2012 4:17 AM PST
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90 Worgen Mage
8280
Just providing a few Frost parses to add to the whole plethora of information available on the thread.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-llijs0xayo20q0lp/

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-t5mfxnqjhoe3fxr8/

Very acceptable amounts of damage, near the top for every fight, if not, then top. :) Glad to see I could make the switch back to Frost and still remain a top contender for DPS/damage.

Had to go pretty far back to snag a fire parse that was pre 5.1 in order to compare damage. (Obviously, 5.1 damage shouldn't be compared because of how grossly OP fire became thanks to the combust change)

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-z5oeo7bh3dsisrn6/

Gear ilvl change was around 3 points, no set bonus gain or loss.
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1 Troll Rogue
0
Arcane's trending up started @ 5.1 patch, not @ fire nerf hotfix.


I think the fact that all of the top tier raiders are moving away from fire illustrates it's inherent "!@#$iness" so to speak.

Why would there be such a massive migration on fights where arcane doesn't excel if fire was balanced?


I was trying to negate GC's assertion that arcane's rise was a direct result of good fire mages swapping to arcane. It had already began trending up immediately at the patch.

Fire mages didn't start bailing en masse for arcane until the hotfix 4 days later.
Edited by Freemarket on 12/8/2012 4:29 AM PST
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90 Worgen Mage
15160
i am simply blown away by how many there are who refuse to accept that fire can still parse among our good old OP days after these "account canceling, forced respeccing, nonviable benching" nerfs. perhaps my recent 67th rank should have been much higher hadn't the nerf been so drastic, but it wasnt, and it is still respectable damage output nonetheless.


The critical mass nerf meant that we lost a !@#$ ton of crit rating. The effects of this will vary based on gear levels. I just had a look at yours and while I thought I was reasonably geared, you are even better again which means you are in the top say 5% of raiding mages in the world. Additionally, you have a further 3% crit than I do which would put you in the region of 34% raid buffed and 42.5% crit due to CM. This and a little bit of RNG on one fight and you will see damage that is compareable pre-nerf.

Your perspective however is very warped. While we will all at some stage reach the same levels of gear - and perhaps then be happy with the fire spec in part - the great majority of players do not have crit levels that reach your own. I see from the log of that fight that the largest single run of FB non crits you got at any stage was 4, and many were less than that, which means for you, every 2 - 3 FB's you could proc your Pyros, and do successfully well on Combustion.

On my last fight in Terrace on Thursday, the largest number of FB I got in a row with no crits is 16 - and I have semi decent levels of crit. For those below me - which makes up a significant part of the population - their crit levels are even lower and these long strings of no crits are a serious problem with the Fire spec because our entire arsenal of damage depends on critical hits.

So from your persepctive you are one of the few lucky ones that may not be having the kind of RNG the "lesser mortals" have, but it is disturbing that from your platform on high you seem not to be able to grasp why people are having problems with the nerf.

You can even see the results in the raid bots parses - look at those in heroic modes and the drop is significantly less severe. These are the people who are geared and able to retain enough Crit to be viable. Then flip to Normal modes and LFR and the "lesser geared mortals" and the damage drop resembles the stock market several years ago.

Also, the idea for those suggesting it, that the drop is indicative of the experienced and geared players moving to Arcane is absurd. The geared and experienced players play heroic modes - and their drop is far less severed because they have the gear to support it. Please do not insult our intelligence by suggesting that the "geared and experienced" LFR and Casual raiders are switching to Arcane because suddenly sims are saying it is better... I mean seriously? Say that out loud and listen to how stupid that statement really is.

The problem with this nerf is not who it doesn't hurt that much - which happens to be the top geared mages in the world - who it hurts is the average mage wanting to raid and play the spec as fire who now cannot seem to get a crit if their life depended on it. It was like this nerf was designed and implemented entirely with the perspective of the top 5% of the raiding players and %^-* those who aren't in that group.

Will it even out in higher gear? Yes. I am sure next tier we will have higher crit levels and will start to see RNG in our favour again. There is just one big glaring hole in this which to me feels like the Elephant in the room - when our gear allows us to reach the high crit levels again, and fire once again gets RNG parses in the extreme end due to our crit reliance, does that mean we will have a similar nerf next tier? And the one after that? I mean talk about a bandaid to the problem.
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90 Gnome Mage
6870
i am simply blown away by how many there are who refuse to accept that fire can still parse among our good old OP days after these "account canceling, forced respeccing, nonviable benching" nerfs. perhaps my recent 67th rank should have been much higher hadn't the nerf been so drastic, but it wasnt, and it is still respectable damage output nonetheless.


Fire has the highest range of swing in RNG of all of the classes and all of the specs.
So what we are saying is one week from one person, out of the thousands for a spec that has the most RNG is not a good indicator of how the spec is doing after the 5.1 patch.
Now if you and hundreds of others are seeing that at heroic gear levels the spec is doing well performance wise, great that will be good to know that we will get there at some point.
I don't think your really say that because you did well one week that makes the spec good for everyone else?

But here is the main thing that most people ignore or don't think about. Fire is one of the highest if not the highest RNG and range of DPS for the same level of gear and performance. So say a fire person plays near perfect and on the same fight their DPS varies from say 70k to 100k due to RNG/luck (a 30k swing), but other classes with less RNG who play nearly perfect have say a 15k swing in their DPS.

Raidbots only shows the kills, not the many more attempts that are not kills, and so changes are higher that for the kills was when a fire mage RNG was higher. So people see the fire spec that got the much higher/luckier dps out of their 30k swing on the kills versus the lower (or now closer to middle/equal) dps of the other classes with say a 15k dps swing. And so they assume that is what the fire spec normally does and ignore or don't think about what it's average is.

So adjusting a spec with the largest swing in DPS based on the upper portion of that swing on when it RNG's the best is not really, IMO balance. Because that means the other times when the spec swings low, and we all know it does, your parses of overall with no kills shows this even at your higher gear levels, tends to balance fire on most fights/pulls lower that others.

No one is saying fire should be top DPS. But what most people are saying is don't adjust the spec with the most swing in DPS on the top (less than 10 percent) of the thousands of people, nor on the bottom of those people.
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