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Post nerf (Friday): http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/f2x7958gox8xqqta/
Pre-nerf (Friday the 16th, we skipped Thanksgiving Friday): http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/f2x7958gox8xqqta/
I'm not amazing, but I hope I can help provide some insight with these. Especially for lesser geared mages.
Don't have any parses, and I wont by the looks of it.
Raid leader decided he's only taking 1 mage from now on, and he's forcing him to switch to arcane.
Pretty sure he's replacing them with 1 Aff Lock and a hunter.
Pretty disappointed to be honest ;(
Keep posting logs please.
So in the interest of providing parses I submit this one from the 1st boss in HoF.
The arcane mage and my self were at the same ilevel.
I was not 100 clean in things but it illustrates the issue I am seeing.
My guild commented all last night about my severe drop in dps and I am still at a loss to explain such a dramatic drop in dps even with me getting 2pc out of LFR.
I checked gear options with Rawr and there are no issues outside me not having jade spirit enchant on the weapon.
I have more time today to run LFR to collect more data and share that but my concern is that
the balancing went to far.
Comparing from last week to this week is silly, because last week had an indisputably overpowered Combustion change.
Comparing from last week to this week is silly, because last week had an indisputably overpowered Combustion change.
And if you're talking to me, I'm not sure of your point. I simply gave the information that Lhiv asked for.
No fire mage thought we needed to be buffed in 5.1, and no fire mage is mad about the subsequent nerf to Combustion back to pre 5.1 levels. The only thing any of us are concerned about is the impact of the CM nerf.
Reverting the Combustion buff alone would have meant no change to fire mage dps. However they reduced my raid crit level by 17%, from 45% to 37.5%. Of course I'm concerned about it because it effects my game play in ways far beyond just my position on the meters.
My parses were surprising. I'm no elite raider (Hello from Moon Guard!) but here's my info:
I got three upgrades in between the raids: t
1) the wand Torch of the Celestial Spark off of Elegon in the pre-nerf raid (used on Will of the Emperor in that raid). It was an upgrade from the LFR version of that wand.
2) Vestments of Thundering Skies from Valor Points. It was an upgrade from the Imperial Ghostbinder's Robes from LFR.
3) Burning Necklace of the Golden Lotus, from the exalted Golden Lotus rep quest. It was an upgrade from the LFR Worldwaker Cachabon.
Summary of upgrades: Three 476 items upgraded to 489. edit: For whatever it's worth, Ask Mr. Robot indicates that these three upgrades were worth 6652 dps.
Summary of my MSV parse (I wouldn't consider my HoF parse to be meaningful, as I'm still learning those fights):
On Stone Guard, my dps went up from 69.6k to 78.7k.
On Feng, my dps went up from 61.4k to 66.8k.
On Spirit Kings, my dps fell from 56k to 55.8k.
On Elegon, my dps fell from 106.7k to 97.8k.
On Will of the Emperor, my dps went up from 43k to 46.2k.
If you drill down in the damage done results and compare the nerf is definitely there; my crit rates are significantly lower, my combustions suck and I don't have as many Pyroblasts. But in terms of the damage done and the dps, the nerf seems to be pretty much offset by my gear upgrades.
I was very worried that the nerf would render me useless and I'm glad I'm not. As far as I know, though, I'm one of the best geared players in my raid, and I feel like I should be one of the dps leaders, not stuck in the middle of the pack as I am now.
Edited by Tatijana on 12/5/2012 1:05 PM PST
Lhiv asked specifically for logs from this week to compare against the others in your group, not a comparison between this week and last week.
Honestly, it looks about right. You have to remember that while Simcraft has its uses, it's not directly applicable to how raids actually work. Different bosses, different strategies affect specs differently. Given your raid makeup from the post-nerf log (didn't look at pre-nerf), your closest compatriot is Reverentia. You're 2 ilevels ahead of her, and fill a similar role.
Keeping that in mind, if we assume that fights affect you two similarly, with her pulling ahead on fights where she can multidot, you ahead where you can spread through Impact (admittedly, not much in MSV). Skimming your fights, you've got a fairly small gap between the two of you on most fights, with Reverentia slightly ahead. The two fights in MSV where she pulls way ahead are Elegon (which apparently Fire does poorly on compared to Warlocks? This seems to be common, but I'm not sure why), and Will (Multidot hoooooo!). A lot of the discrepancy can just be attributed to Affliction being slightly better, someone having a good night, someone having an off night, a little luck, etc. It's nothing to write home about though.
And don't feel bad losing to melee; some fights melee will just have an advantage.
Edited by Serinicas on 12/5/2012 12:43 PM PST
I parsed 4th on Protectors of the Endless Normal as Frost this week. As much as I'd like to think it's because I'm just so amazing, it means only terrible players are or were playing Frost on these encounters if I can switch to raiding as frost for the first time ever and parse in the world top 100 on most encounters, not that I'm stellar at the spec. The "sharp improvement" in Frost numbers is obviously not due to a nonexistent buff but due to quality players switching to a bad spec to make the most of it.
I tested frost on 3/4 normal ToES and 4/6 normal HoF last night (since all my gear is crit/haste and I found the arcane playstyle unappealing when testing over the weekend).
Frost does appear to be weaker than pre-nerf fire (despite me getting 2-piece tier and the Relic of Yu'lon between last week and this, which are decent gear upgrades. My gear looks off in the armory because I got a new cape last night and haven't re-reforged yet). I don't think this is a surprise to anyone, but it may point to frost being less viable in comparison to arcane:
Imperial Vizier (11/28, as fire): http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-eqj3necn9nudzp1q/sum/damageDone/?s=5918&e=6299
Imperial Vizier (12/4, as frost): http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-4l2tfy4d48fceiwg/sum/damageDone/?s=4226&e=4591
Overall frost log from 12/4: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-4l2tfy4d48fceiwg/
Of course this was my first time playing frost since I was in blues at the start of MoP so I have no doubt I can push my dps a few percentage points higher if I put more time into the intricacies of the spec. However, given that I ranked decently (vs. parses from this week) I doubt there's more than ~10% gain to be had, if that.
I enjoyed playing frost a lot as the spec is fast-paced and has good mobility, but it does look like the numbers are leaning towards arcane being the min/max'ers spec of choice (for example, the top arcane parse on 10N Vizier is 98,997 DPS while the top frost parse on 10N Vizier is 88,819 DPS).
Why is it that Frost is a "bad spec"?
The "sharp improvement" in Frost numbers is obviously not due to a nonexistent buff but due to quality players switching to a bad spec to make the most of it.
By "bad spec" I merely mean "strictly inferior in all PVE applications to the other Mage specs". Parses appear to bear out that post-nerf Fire, on the average parse, is going to be superior to Frost on cleave encounters and Arcane will be superior on single-target fights. My numbers were more than adequate to meet the berserk timers for normal encounters, although once we start moving into heroics I might have to switch to Arcane.
I find Frost's play style very similar to Fire with the added slight frustration of managing WE Freezes and having him randomly despawn while transitioning platforms on Sha of Fear, but mechanically the spec is enjoyable and performs adequately.
Edited by Mahourai on 12/5/2012 12:53 PM PST
These are logs from our numerous wipes on Heroic Blade Lord Ta'yak this week. I was fire for the first night of serious progression on him, and arcane for the second. While these are wipes and should be taken for what they are, I do pride myself on being an exceptional player of all specs, and hopefully this will be able to provide some insight on what post-buff arcane and (more importantly) post-nerf fire are capable of single-target.
Fire (12/2): http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-gy7eocuittmwc321/sum/damageDone/?enc=wipes&boss=63664
Arcane (12/3): http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/ydrqzsqy1l0vzxbd/sum/damageDone/?enc=wipes&boss=63664
Again, these are wipes. If I could provide a good amount of data from weeks where I had played fire both pre-nerf and post-nerf, I would. I made the switch to arcane during blade lord progression, and this is the only fight I've experienced outside of LFR as post-nerf fire before switching.
Edited by Arold on 12/5/2012 12:53 PM PST
Well it's a bit of a different story for Arcane mages as they did receive significant buffs to become viable at the same time as the major Fire nerfs. Frost is just getting spillover quality players improving the average parse.
Yeah, Frost didn't actually receive a buff — but we've long known (and the devs have said this as well) that the simple fact of being underplayed will seriously depress a spec's aggregated parse numbers well below what the spec is actually capable of. Simply increasing the number and quality of players using a spec will make a huge difference in how it appears to perform.
I think it's worth knowing the sort of numbers people are seeing Frost produce now simply because if more people are playing it, the picture of what it can do will be more accurate.
Honestly, I don't see why this would be a pessimistic point of view. If 95% of Mage players were using Fire, we have to assume that a good portion of them would have preferred to be using Arcane or Frost, but didn't feel free to do so because Fire was putting out more damage. Enabling people to switch to their preferred spec not only probably was part of the motivation to nerf Fire, it should be part of the motivation to nerf fire, because improving balance between the three specs is the only way to give people that freedom.
What we're trying to get at in this thread is the results of the change. If they struck a decent balance, we should see fewer people playing Fire and more people playing Arcane and Frost. If the number of Mages playing Fire drops from 95% (spitballing) to 30-40%, that is not evidence of a catastrophic nerf — it's evidence that they've achieved a pretty good balance, so that the number of people using each spec is reasonably similar.
If, however, they overshot the target, we may see 5% of people using Fire and the problem has just been reversed. Blizzard likely already has a pretty good idea of whether they hit the target or not based on their internal data. This thread is more intended for us as players to try to determine that for ourselves.
Edited by Lhivera on 12/5/2012 1:15 PM PST
We haven't done all our farm content yet so there isn't a mogu to comare to, but we did HoF and ToES so I'll just post the link to all our logs
If you look at last week on Tuesday I did really well
and I guess I either lost or forgot to upload ToES from this week so when I get home I'll see if I can find it. But comparing skada meters to last weeks WoL I did about 20k less dps on Tsulong and Lei Shi compared to last weeks and I got my 4 pc that I did not have last tuesday. I probably won't play fire in mogu this week, gotta learn arcane at some point, so I won't be able to contribute to this thread there.
pessimistic because of the belief that 95% were playing the spec and a majority didn't want to.
Reality is that a majority of mages will play the spec that does the most damage regardless of what the spec is. If there is no clear winner then you could see a more even split in the number of players playing different specs. Having fire be middle of the road on anything outside of good-RNG and/or cleave fights will see less than 33% of mages play it b/c of the inconsistency... this has been proven in the past expansions.
90 Worgen Mage
Choices are pretty limited right now though. Fire is low outside of cleave, arcane will always have to deal with immobility, frost has the lowest scaling factors (and its not like it was a top spec before high gear levels).
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