Mages, post-Fire nerf: show us your parses

100 Blood Elf Mage
8200


Ah I see, I didn't realize it was a seven-day rolling average. That would explain the trend line. Thanks for explaining.
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Mage
11545
Where is your evidence that Blizzard "over-nerfed fire mages"? This is the entire issue. Just because you aren't 10-15% ahead of the rest of your raid any more does not mean your spec was over-nerfed.


I think the wording of "over-nerf" is the main problem here. The main issue is a huge nerf came out with no testing/warning. A nerf that, by the devs own words, was made to address a future problem, not a current one.

This caused a mess of current problems for people/guilds who have been gearing based on being fire mages, which is a whole different stat priority than the other specs.

Plus, if your raid team is comprised of multiple mages, you suddenly lose a big chunk of raidwide DPS out of nowhere. You have been playing thusfar in the raid tier expecting these people to pull around x amount of damage,....and now they drop massively.

Now since 9-24 other people are expecting this person to pull that same amount of damage that they were doing just a week before, they feel compelled to switch specs. That brings the "forced to" argument into play.

It also makes it so much harder to swallow when you are much better geared than you were 2 weeks ago, but are doing significantly less damage.

TL;DR
The number amounts and the reasoning for the nerf were not terrible,....the timing was. Had they done this change with 5.2, I doubt the uproar would be as much. Sure, people would complain, but doing it between raid tiers would have been far superior to surprise time in the middle of progression.

I know this doesn't really apply to parses,...but I think the problem is people are looking at this as a numbers problem, when that really isn't the exact issue here, it's all about the timing.
Reply Quote
80 Orc Hunter
9625
Plus, if your raid team is comprised of multiple mages, you suddenly lose a big chunk of raidwide DPS out of nowhere. You have been playing thusfar in the raid tier expecting these people to pull around x amount of damage,....and now they drop massively.

Now since 9-24 other people are expecting this person to pull that same amount of damage that they were doing just a week before, they feel compelled to switch specs. That brings the "forced to" argument into play.


If you and your group weren't expecting fire to get nerfed HARD then I'm going to go out on a limb and say you weren't thinking ahead AT ALL!
Reply Quote
100 Gnome Mage
9085
One other things to keep in mind about Raidbots. The number of parses submitted can impact how quickly the average shows impact of changes. For example Arcane is getting significantly more parses since the nerf, so it can impact the average more. Which is why you see its number going up before fire started to drop.

Likewise # of Fire parses are down a bit, so it favors the higher DPS numbers from pre-nerf slightly when more parses were submitted.
Edited by Aftershock on 12/6/2012 1:58 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Mage
17990
If only we could have more hunters and monks trolling, that would be amazing.
Reply Quote
90 Undead Mage
11870
12/06/2012 01:27 PMPosted by Linnelle
I'm not the one clamoring for a change, I'm more or less happy with the way things are. If you want a change made you need to prove that it is needed. (BTW, I have no dog in the dps race hunt, I play tanks and healers in parties/raids).


So.. you want me to prove that blizzard broke something that wasn't broken. And you want me to prove this to who exactly? You? Blizzard? You have had it proven already in this thread. It's been proven in other threads. Its proven in the steeply downward trend of data showing fire mages dropping like a rock in less than a week since they "fixed" it.

As for proving it to Blizzard, I'm sorry. Nothing I can do will prove this to them. This is the same company that "hotfixed" scaling issues. Not only did they hotfix these scaling issues, but they kept them off the PTR and dropped them on the community mid-tier just days after releasing a major patch.

I don't think they're overly concerned with what I can prove and what I can't.


You mean the statistical averages that currently show fire being in the top half of all dps specs despite this "over-nerfing"? Granted not much into the top half, but still above #12. Sorry, but middle of the pack is not "over-nerfed". Yes, fire took an uppercut to the chops but the data thus far does not show it being in a standing 8 count, let alone through the ropes and down onto the concrete like some have claimed.


Try reading the posts right above yours.

Or, if you want to see for yourself, here is a 2 week sample size vs a 1 week sample size:

2 week: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25N/all/14/60/default/#5fvjh
1 week: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25N/all/7/60/default/#5fvjh

When I pulled the numbers last weekend, even with the combustion buff in 5.1 and only a couple of days of hotfixed fire fire was still only 2nd behind combat rogues with an overall of 74.6k dps.

The current 1 week sample has fire at 74.1k dps, and no, we're not in the top half. Even adding in the statistically irrelevant specs (less than 1% rep), we're 18th. Beating 5 other specs. Ironically, one of the specs we're beating is frost. lulz.

Removing those specs, we're 16th, beating 4 specs. How exactly is that "middle" or slightly "over middle"?
Reply Quote
100 Troll Mage
12840
12/06/2012 12:03 PMPosted by Mahourai
Thanks for this completely worthless troll post, the likes of which you have been making all across mage threads for days.


Yup, he has
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
13295
Fair enough.
And I don't think this process is a total waste of time, and certainly including real reviewable data in to the conversations helps to keep the communication practical. So people will realize that this is not a prove your opinion and Blizzard will act based on that, but a back up your opinion with data so we have a realistic conversation and not just speculation so that the developers can potential weed on out whiners versus those with opinions based on real experience, then all good.


I have posted our logs for those who care to look.

The #1 frustration for me is that the nerf to CM set me back to the beginning of the tier in terms of stability. When we started out, I would do well on some pulls, not so well on others. I would see our other dps gain dps as we learned the fight and my dps seemed to be a total crap shoot. As time went by, and people geared up (including me) I saw my dps not only go up, but stabilize. I would be more consistent from pull to pull on progression bosses. I was able to learn the fights and improve my personal performance, just like everyone else.

I spent a month at or near the bottom in my raid group. I still remember the first fight I actually was top dps (aside from our tank) on a kill. I was elated!

Last monday (pre 5.1) I was sitting on about 31% crit raid buffed. I finally had enough crit to be able to play with some of my secondary stats without feeling that I was going to go back into the crap shoot that was early 5.0.5. It felt good to be able to fight with my fellow raiders for that top dps spot! I felt I was contributing, and I didn't feel like I was holding us back any longer. 31% crit meant an expected crit rate of about 42%. This allowed me to move more freely. It allowed me to not have to stress out so much when combustion was coming off CD because I knew that it would probably be *soon* when I could put up a good combustion. It made the spec play the way a spec should; You had opportunity to play well, and you had opportunity to capitalize on those opportunities to improve your performance. In short, it allowed a good mage to be good.

After the hotfix to fix scaling, I was still in the same gear. I had 31% crit raid buffed, but now, I was looking at 35% expected crit. I wasn't as mobile. I was stressing out about combustion coming off CD - mostly due to seeing 15k ignites for the past 10 seconds...

To get back to that 42% expected crit, I now need 36.6% crit. This *may* be obtainable in full heroic gear, but more than likely it will be in the middle to the end of the next tier before I am able to reach that level again. That to me is unacceptable. To have a spec that flows, and to have that flow dashed seemingly on a whim (hotfix), knowing that it won't flow that way until the next tier, and not being able to do a thing about it are disheartening and frustrating.

Logs are all fine and dandy, but people will generally post logs to fit their opinion. "I say I do less, so here are logs that prove it" or "I say we're fine, so here's logs to prove it". People are posting LFR logs. People are posting specific logs from specific fights. It really becomes as meaningless and empty as someone saying "I went down 20%" or "I stayed the same".

I look to something more unbiased. Raidbots for example. Its a sampling of all of the parses. There is no single person trying to prove an agenda there. Its all about the data. If you pull 25n and look at the last 2 weeks, Fire dropped from 2nd (behind combat rogues) to 3rd. If you limit it to just the last week (which still includes pulls from before the hotfix), Fire drops to 8th.

By this time next week, I would expect it to drop even further. Which is sad.


Someone has to be 8th, why not fire mages? Tell me why you're entitled to always be higher than the 25ish other DPS specs. You have a LONG way to fall before you're at the bottom of the DPS list and even if fire was at the bottom you'd have at least one other competitive spec. From here it looks to me you have a problem being anywhere but the top...
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
10850
Please, only constructive info in this thread. Opinions and other random thoughts can be posted in the other 100 "hahaha mages" threads.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
12/06/2012 02:08 PMPosted by Khagan
Someone has to be 8th, why not fire mages? Tell me why you're entitled to always be higher than the 25ish other DPS specs. You have a LONG way to fall before you're at the bottom of the DPS list and even if fire was at the bottom you'd have at least one other competitive spec. From here it looks to me you have a problem being anywhere but the top...


You've already managed to torpedo your own post right here. You obviously didn't read his post which pretty clearly laid out that the true impact of the nerfs isn't going to be visible on aggregates like this until they stop using data pre-nerf. What you're saying is, your spec is fine when parses are included from the time period where it was by far the strongest dps spec in the game. Not only that, but you follow it up by saying you don't care if the nerfs destroyed Fire and made it the worst spec in the game, because at least one other Mage spec is playable, the same kind of bland trolling that the hunter a page back was trying to pass off as serious analysis.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
9535
12/06/2012 02:08 PMPosted by Khagan
at least one other competitive spec.


Pures shouldn't be forced into specs they don't enjoy playing anymore than hybrids should. If a mage wants to be a fire mage he should be able to in 5mans and 10mans, in LFR and hardmodes.

Now whether or not fire was nerfed hard enough that it won't be considered viable for competitive raiding still remains to be seen, but if it is that bad then "just respec" isn't an acceptable answer.
Reply Quote
90 Undead Mage
11870
It felt good to be able to fight with my fellow raiders for that top dps spot!


Someone has to be 8th, why not fire mages? Tell me why you're entitled to always be higher than the 25ish other DPS specs. You have a LONG way to fall before you're at the bottom of the DPS list and even if fire was at the bottom you'd have at least one other competitive spec. From here it looks to me you have a problem being anywhere but the top...


Fighting for the top =/= being the top.

Both of your specs soundly thrash fire mages on Wind Lord. Perhaps I should start a campaign to get them nerfed? I mean come on... one is a tanking spec! :O

In fact, the top Fire mage parse on that fight is #555.

"Top on every fight!"...

Also, being 8th in a 10 man puts you below both tanks and possibly one of the healers. Seems legit. I assume you mean 5th or 6th. In which case I have never had a problem being 5th or 6th in my group. If I am, I am. It's when I don't even have the option to compete for top DPS within my raid group, when I had that opportunity just 1 week ago that I have an issue.

If you do in fact think that mages should be 8th in a 10 man, behind both tanks, then you are beyond help.

Edit: "Long way to fall"...

We've got 3k to go before we're under Arms warriors (current last place). We've dropped 4k in the last 5 days. Not sure how you think that's a "long way to go"
Edited by Howmanylichs on 12/6/2012 2:45 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
He obviously means 8th on WoL compared to all DPS specs, not 8th in a 10 or 25 man.
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
10850
Please don't feed the trolls guys. There are so many other threads for this. Lets keep this one on track with a legitimate discussion.
Reply Quote
Well, according to raidbots we are now dropping at a drastic rate with no signs of stopping.
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Mage
13780

If you and your group weren't expecting fire to get nerfed HARD then I'm going to go out on a limb and say you weren't thinking ahead AT ALL!


Buffed on Tuesday, over nerfed on Friday - not really something one would be expecting.

Seems too man non fire mages don't seem to understand the concept of random distribution as to why fire mages 'appear' to be at the top.

Seems also that removing all cooldown and procs from the rotation of a spec is all find and dandy.

The whinging about fire nerfs isn't about being on top of the charts, it is about being a viable spec at all.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Mage
11150
12/06/2012 03:05 PMPosted by Kawaiidesu
Well, according to raidbots we are now dropping at a drastic rate with no signs of stopping.


http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10N/all/7/60/default/#5fvjh

And our first full clear of 10N MV last night:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/9atxoq31safynquk/sum/damageDone/

Yes, we're bad. Casual players, casual raid. One night per week.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Mage
9125
From our 10m normal Terrace run last night we had 2 mages my friend was Fire and I was testing & running as Arcane.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-kxz18f8sf5vu3a3a/
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Mage
11505
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10N/all/7/30/default/

Working as intended.

Notice how the fire mages never once exceeded the DPS that warlocks are doing.

But somehow a nerf to drop fire mages down to the bottom of the pack was justified, and affliction locks were left alone.

Well, at least mages have another event to point to when people scream "MAGE FAVORITISM!".
Edited by Kaikou on 12/6/2012 3:52 PM PST
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]