Mages, post-Fire nerf: show us your parses

90 Worgen Hunter
9675


Actually, they're not. RNG = random number generator. The way you imbeciles use "RNG" would be like a poker player saying he lost because of "bad dealer hand motion." You have the same RNG as the rest of us. You may have bad luck WITH the RNG that day and get some crappy randomly generated numbers (RGNs?), but you can't have bad RNG... unless, I suppose, you're trying to create your own RNG and aren't very good at it, but what does that have to do with WoW?

And I didn't respond seriously to the thread because it doesn't deserve a serious response. Either fire mages weren't nerfed enough and this thread is useless because you're still OP, fire mages were nerfed correctly and this thread is useless because you're fine (Hint: this is the correct answer) or fire is bad and you're now like just about every other class and can respec like we do. Who gives a !@#$?


Apparently, you do. You're in every recent fire mage thread on the forums.


Nah, I give a !@#$ about proving idiots wrong. I don't care even slightly about the balance of the game in PvE and barely care in PvP.
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90 Worgen Hunter
9675
Peverell, I didn't say it would mean it was overnerfed; I said it would mean a good balance had not been struck between the three specs.

However, I'm afraid you're going to have to provide some parses to support the assertion that Frost is coming out ahead of a lot of specs and/or entire classes. That sounds highly dubious based on what I've seen here or digging around Raidbots so far.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium


I was mostly just lumping both of the other options together.
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90 Human Mage
8970
12/07/2012 05:07 AMPosted by Lhivera
So all told, balance in DPS and balance in people playing specs shouldn't be very different. If a good balance has been struck in DPS, then we should see a better distribution of players across the three specs. And if we see a better distribution, that's a bit of evidence suggesting that a good balance has been struck in DPS.


I agree with what you are saying to some extent, balancing DPS is extremely important if the intent is to have all specs be viable in pve and pvp. Your right that we should see a better distribution of players across all three specs if that is achieved. However, what I was trying to get at and perhaps failed at presenting well, is that even if dps is balanced amongst all three specs or even if arcane was significantly better on single target, if the number of people playing fire fell from 95% to 50% or less it would be undeniable evidence that fire has received a catastrophic nerf, as we can all see it has from the parses.

But to move on from that I really don't see a balance between all the specs happening unless the issues myself and others addressed previously are resolved. Anyway I want to say thank you for putting in the time with this thread and for the responses, it's nice to know that someone is listening. :P
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These nerfs are something that needs to be looked into, because next expansion these same nerfs are going to happen; just like the happened in Cataclysm.

Blizzard needs to fix our crit scaling. Fire Magi scale too well with crit at the beginning of the expansion, but rather than trying to make the quadratic graph more linear, they nerf us in the middle of a tier and have us climb our way back up.

This needs to change.
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90 Worgen Hunter
9675
These nerfs are something that needs to be looked into, because next expansion these same nerfs are going to happen; just like the happened in Cataclysm.

Blizzard needs to fix our crit scaling. Fire Magi scale too well with crit at the beginning of the expansion, but rather than trying to make the quadratic graph more linear, they nerf us in the middle of a tier and have us climb our way back up.

This needs to change.


Don't use math terms to try to make yourself sound more intelligent. Quadratic means that your damage spikes quickly as crit increases until a point where your damage actually starts to decrease as you increase crit even further. As in, you'd get to 100% crit and do less damage than when you had 20% crit. What you wanted to say was logarithmic, I assume. A rapid growth in damage early on from very low crit levels to medium crit levels, but then much slower growth as crit continues to increase.
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90 Troll Mage
15205
12/07/2012 04:42 AMPosted by Peverell


Actually they are http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/luck


Actually, they're not. RNG = random number generator. The way you imbeciles use "RNG" would be like a poker player saying he lost because of "bad dealer hand motion." You have the same RNG as the rest of us. You may have bad luck WITH the RNG that day and get some crappy randomly generated numbers (RGNs?), but you can't have bad RNG... unless, I suppose, you're trying to create your own RNG and aren't very good at it, but what does that have to do with WoW?

And I didn't respond seriously to the thread because it doesn't deserve a serious response. Either fire mages weren't nerfed enough and this thread is useless because you're still OP, fire mages were nerfed correctly and this thread is useless because you're fine (Hint: this is the correct answer) or fire is bad and you're now like just about every other class and can respec like we do. Who gives a !@#$?


Yay for arguing about semantics. RNG and luck for all intents and purposes are the same. While they are not technically the same, it still works perfectly fine to interchange them. Luck is having a high/low success rate based on random factors. RNG determines those random factors, randomly. There getting bad rng means getting bad random factors which means getting bad luck.

Your next paragraph sums up what is wrong with the playerbase in regards to balance, you are so biased against something that you are actually against the game being balanced. You just want whatever you dont like nerfed to the ground. You don't care about balance, which means no one should care what you think. Balance and fun are two of the most important concepts of a game.
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90 Troll Mage
15205
12/07/2012 06:46 AMPosted by Peverell
Don't use math terms to try to make yourself sound more intelligent. Quadratic means that your damage spikes quickly as crit increases until a point where your damage actually starts to decrease as you increase crit even further. As in, you'd get to 100% crit and do less damage than when you had 20% crit. What you wanted to say was logarithmic, I assume. A rapid growth in damage early on from very low crit levels to medium crit levels, but then much slower growth as crit continues to increase.


Actually no, quadratic does not mean that it slows down at higher values or anything.

X^2 for example is a quadratic line and that just increases faster and faster as x increases. A better term though is exponential.

A quadratic line can do what you said, but it is not limited to that. So good job trying to look smart but failing.
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These nerfs are something that needs to be looked into, because next expansion these same nerfs are going to happen; just like the happened in Cataclysm.

Blizzard needs to fix our crit scaling. Fire Magi scale too well with crit at the beginning of the expansion, but rather than trying to make the quadratic graph more linear, they nerf us in the middle of a tier and have us climb our way back up.

This needs to change.


Don't use math terms to try to make yourself sound more intelligent. Quadratic means that your damage spikes quickly as crit increases until a point where your damage actually starts to decrease as you increase crit even further. As in, you'd get to 100% crit and do less damage than when you had 20% crit. What you wanted to say was logarithmic, I assume. A rapid growth in damage early on from very low crit levels to medium crit levels, but then much slower growth as crit continues to increase.

Let me help you.

This is what a quadratic graph looks like:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/Quadratic_function.svg/300px-Quadratic_function.svg.png

This is a logarithm:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Binary_logarithm_plot_with_ticks.svg/300px-Binary_logarithm_plot_with_ticks.svg.png

Quadratic functions are a degree higher then linear function, I shouldn't have to explain this.

Anyway let's get back on topic.
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90 Worgen Hunter
9675
Don't use math terms to try to make yourself sound more intelligent. Quadratic means that your damage spikes quickly as crit increases until a point where your damage actually starts to decrease as you increase crit even further. As in, you'd get to 100% crit and do less damage than when you had 20% crit. What you wanted to say was logarithmic, I assume. A rapid growth in damage early on from very low crit levels to medium crit levels, but then much slower growth as crit continues to increase.


Actually no, quadratic does not mean that it slows down at higher values or anything. The first half of y=-x^2 is the closest to what he was looking at, but isn't correct.

X^2 for example is a quadratic line and that just increases faster and faster as x increases. A better term though is exponential.

A quadratic line can do what you said, but it is not limited to that. So good job trying to look smart but failing.


You're an imbecile. No quadratic function describes what you're all describing as the problem with balancing fire.



Don't use math terms to try to make yourself sound more intelligent. Quadratic means that your damage spikes quickly as crit increases until a point where your damage actually starts to decrease as you increase crit even further. As in, you'd get to 100% crit and do less damage than when you had 20% crit. What you wanted to say was logarithmic, I assume. A rapid growth in damage early on from very low crit levels to medium crit levels, but then much slower growth as crit continues to increase.

Let me help you.

This is what a quadratic graph looks like:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/Quadratic_function.svg/300px-Quadratic_function.svg.png

This is a logarithm:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Binary_logarithm_plot_with_ticks.svg/300px-Binary_logarithm_plot_with_ticks.svg.png

Quadratic functions are a degree higher then linear function, I shouldn't have to explain this.

Anyway let's get back on topic.


And the logarithm graph is what you're describing. Quick growth leveling off at higher gear levels. Going from 10% to 20% crit is a significantly bigger DPS spike than going from 85% crit to 95% crit, but it's still going to increase slightly with any crit gain (at least until 100% crit).
Edited by Peverell on 12/7/2012 7:51 AM PST
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90 Troll Mage
15205
12/07/2012 07:45 AMPosted by Peverell
You're an imbecile. No quadratic function describes what you're all describing as the problem with balancing fire.


I made no mention of balancing fire so that is irrelevent to my comment. I simply showed why what you said was wrong.

12/07/2012 06:46 AMPosted by Peverell
Quadratic means that your damage spikes quickly as crit increases until a point where your damage actually starts to decrease as you increase crit even further


A quadratic equation continues to increase faster as x increase. Which is the opposite of what you said. X^2 is a quadratic line.
The rate of change of X^2 is 2*X
As X increases the rate of change increases at double the rate.

Which means that there is no point where damage starts to decrase as you increase your crit.
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12/07/2012 07:52 AMPosted by Hiroran
Which is the opposite of what you said.

Let's just ignore him. It is my fault for using math terms on the WoW forums in the first place.

The problem I addressed is that Fire Mages scale too well with crit at the beginning of the expansion. So then Blizzard has to nerf our scaling and leave us struggling until we reach the levels of crit we have previously had.

This needs to change.

I fought against using math terms this time.
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90 Worgen Hunter
9675
You're an imbecile. No quadratic function describes what you're all describing as the problem with balancing fire.


I made no mention of balancing fire so that is irrelevent to my comment. I simply showed why what you said was wrong.

Quadratic means that your damage spikes quickly as crit increases until a point where your damage actually starts to decrease as you increase crit even further


A quadratic equation continues to increase faster as x increase. Which is the opposite of what you said. X^2 is a quadratic line.
The rate of change of X^2 is 2*X
As X increases the rate of change increases at double the rate.

Which means that there is no point where damage starts to decrase as you increase your crit.


And that's the opposite of what I said because that's not what he was describing or what I was describing. That's not what Fire Mages say is their issue as it's not their issue. Damage increases rapidly with crit to start and then slows down. That's what the first half of -x^2 does, hence why I assumed that was the curve he was trying to describe. The problem with using that as a guide is that after it peaks, it starts to decrease, meaning you'd get to a certain crit percentage and then increases would actually reduce your damage. Hence, again, why he's looking for logarithmic, not quadratic. No quadratic function I can think of describes what y = log3(x) + 2 does, which is roughly the curve mages are looking at. Go graph it, then graph a quadratic that does the same thing and come back here. Thanks.
Edited by Peverell on 12/7/2012 8:12 AM PST
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90 Worgen Hunter
9675
12/07/2012 08:10 AMPosted by Arbiter
Which is the opposite of what you said.

Let's just ignore him. It is my fault for using math terms on the WoW forums in the first place.

The problem I addressed is that Fire Mages scale too well with crit at the beginning of the expansion. So then Blizzard has to nerf our scaling and leave us struggling until we reach the levels of crit we have previously had.

This needs to change.

I fought against using math terms this time.


It's your fault for using math terms incorrectly on the WoW forums. That algebra class you pathetically took in 12th grade does not make you a mathematician.
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90 Troll Mage
15205
And that's the opposite of what I said because that's not what he was describing or what I was describing. That's not what Fire Mages say is their issue as it's not their issue. Damage increases rapidly with crit to start and then slows down. That's what the first half of -x^2 does. The problem with using that as a guide is that after it peaks, it starts to decrease. Hence, again, why he's looking for logarithmic, not quadratic. No quadratic function I can think of describes what y = log3(x) + 2 does, which is roughly the curve mages are looking at. Go graph it, then graph a quadratic that does the same thing and come back here. Thanks.


Once again none of that matters to the fact that you said

12/07/2012 06:46 AMPosted by Peverell
Quadratic means that your damage spikes quickly as crit increases until a point where your damage actually starts to decrease as you increase crit even further


When, as I have shown 2 times, it does not.

Whether your main argument was right or not doesnt' matter. I am simply pointing out that the start of your argument was based on something false.
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12/07/2012 08:13 AMPosted by Hiroran
Once again none of that matters to the fact that you said

Stop responding to him.

Realize that he just appears in several other class threads to and spout nonsense detract from the conversation.

He has done this in several other Mage thread and that one Shaman thread.

I know, I am partly at fault for feeding him too.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
0
Reposting this from a post I made on another forum:

It's been a week since the nerf, so we can start looking at the seven day averages on parse aggregators like DPSbot.

The verdict for fire is not good.

Across all fights (rank in parentheses)
25H: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25H/all/7/60/default/ (8th)
25N: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25N/all/7/60/default/ (16th)
10H: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10H/all/7/60/default/ (5th)
10N: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10N/all/7/60/default/ (17th)

Single Target
Feng:
25H: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Feng_the_Accursed/25H/all/7/60/default/ (18th)
25N: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Feng_the_Accursed/25N/all/7/60/default/ (16th)
10H: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Feng_the_Accursed/10H/all/7/60/default/ (14th)
10N: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Feng_the_Accursed/10N/all/7/60/default/ (17th)

Elegon:
25H: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Elegon/25H/all/7/60/default/ (15th)
25N: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Elegon/25N/all/7/60/default/ (13th)
10H: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Elegon/10H/all/7/60/default/ (15th)
10N: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Elegon/10N/all/7/60/default/ (14th)

Cleave
Stone Guards:
25H: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_Stone_Guard/25H/all/7/60/default/ (2nd)
25N: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_Stone_Guard/25N/all/7/60/default/ (2nd)
10H: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_Stone_Guard/10H/all/7/60/default/ (2nd)
10N: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_Stone_Guard/10N/all/7/60/default/ (2nd)

So as you can see, Fire is fine on cleave fights. Fire is in the bottom third on almost every other fight. What surprises me here is that there isn't much improvement between N and H versions of fights. I would assume that HM raiders would have better gear than N raiders, therefore more crit and better parses. Doesn't seem that way, except for "overall dps". As that includes cleave fights, those numbers are skewed. If you can find contradictory data, I'd welcome it. As for me, I guess it's Arcane.
Edited by Wexler on 12/7/2012 8:18 AM PST
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90 Troll Mage
15205
12/07/2012 08:17 AMPosted by Arbiter
Once again none of that matters to the fact that you said

Stop responding to him.

Realize that he just appears in several other class threads to and spout nonsense detract from the conversation.

He has done this in several other Mage thread and that one Shaman thread.

I know, I am partly at fault for feeding him too.


I am fully aware, my general stance on this stuff is to point out why someone is wrong 1-3 times and then leave it be. You have shown them to be wrong so they can't come back later and say "you never proved I was wrong!" and it also allows anyone who chooses to respond later to not have to deal with the nonsense as it has been dealt with already.
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90 Troll Shaman
0
Is it just me or do the majority of these parses show that Mages instead of being 10% ahead of the next player in the raid are now solidly in the middle?

I mean...isn't that a good thing?

I chuckle a little bit when some of the mages are saying "Because they nerfed me, our raid can't hit enrage timers." Seriously, if one class was so good, that by itself was the difference between hitting an enrage timer or not, that's cause by itself for a serious nerfing.

I also find it amusing, when some mage goes like "OMG LOOK AT THIS: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Elegon/10N/all/7/60/default/ THIS IS EVIDENCE THAT WE SUCK."

Then I play a spec that's below fire mages, not even considering arcane is 4th on that same list.
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90 Troll Mage
12435
It's obvious Peverell is a troll. Just mark his posts as trolling and move on.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
0
Is it just me or do the majority of these parses show that Mages instead of being 10% ahead of the next player in the raid are now solidly in the middle?

I mean...isn't that a good thing?

I chuckle a little bit when some of the mages are saying "Because they nerfed me, our raid can't hit enrage timers." Seriously, if one class was so good, that by itself was the difference between hitting an enrage timer or not, that's cause by itself for a serious nerfing.

I also find it amusing, when some mage goes like "OMG LOOK AT THIS: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Elegon/10N/all/7/60/default/ THIS IS EVIDENCE THAT WE SUCK."

Then I play a spec that's below fire mages, not even considering arcane is 4th on that same list.

It's just you, because those parses put fire mages in the bottom third. And yeah we're not talking about arcane mages, we're talking about the nerf to fire.
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