Mages, post-Fire nerf: show us your parses

90 Gnome Mage
6870
DPS isn't a monolithic single-number thing. Arcane is weaker at movement than Fire, so a good balance would account for that and it would be stronger on fights with less movement. If this balance is reasonably well struck, and the difference is not so huge that people outside of bleeding-edge progression guilds feel compelled to switch specs from encounter to encounter, then we should see a reasonably similar number of people playing each spec.


IMO the above statement is filled with subjective words, and hence adds no clarity to the issues and may in fact obscure the issues more. I'm not sure what a bleeding-edge guild is and everyone's interpretations is different. I do know that the majority of people linking raid bots information are not using the top 100 parses, so from that point of view no one is indicating bleeding edge performance.

In addition, it is not just the top end guilds/players that want to use a spec that both performs well and is fun. Even in pugs on alts we all know people look at the performance numbers (what are mages, locks, hunters going to look at in raids). It would be insulting to imply otherwise.
The problem with swapping between arcane and fire for different fights is that the priority of stats is totally different, with Mastery and Crit. The problem is that the game does not allow a person swapping specs to have their reforges (or gems) to remember/reflect that difference. I wish the developers would address that issue, because most people are not going to go reforge between bosses.

I (and I think others) pay money to play this game, and commit no small amount of time to gear up and learn the fights, etc. Taking actions as drastic as the nerfs to fire seem to be showing to be (raidbots shows now not a slope but a cliff) forces ALL playsers who want to perform well in their raids to have to consider if they now change, not even mid expansion to a whole other spec and style of play.
And keep in mind there are going to be a lot of players who really want to stay fire, have gotten good with fire, so the major dip we are seeing (looks like it may hit bottom of all the classes/specs) is an indicator the nerf is even more extreme than before.

The next time Blizzard indicates something to the effect of "we are not seeing that", or "doing fine" it would help if they would say exactly what they are seeing and quantify what doing fine is in terms of numbers.
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12/07/2012 08:19 AMPosted by Hiroran
I am fully aware, my general stance on this stuff is to point out why someone is wrong 1-3 times and then leave it be. You have shown them to be wrong so they can't come back later and say "you never proved I was wrong!" and it also allows anyone who chooses to respond later to not have to deal with the nonsense as it has been dealt with already.

Some people refuse to learn.

Especially since there is no such thing as a graceful defeat on the internet.

When people want to be obstinate let them be obstinate, you can't convert everybody to the side of reason and facts.

But alas, we are detracting from the topic and hurting our own class, let us return to the topic at hand.

Instead of simply reverting the hotfix, Blizzard needs to change the fundamental benefit of crit to Fire Mages. Else we'll have to relive this scenario in the future.
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100 Troll Mage
17020
12/07/2012 08:20 AMPosted by Azloran
Is it just me or do the majority of these parses show that Mages instead of being 10% ahead of the next player in the raid are now solidly in the middle?


How are they solidly in the middle when they go 8th, 16th, 5th, and 17th?

One is above average, one near dead center, and 2 are almost the lowest.

12/07/2012 08:20 AMPosted by Azloran
Seriously, if one class was so good, that by itself was the difference between hitting an enrage timer or not, that's cause by itself for a serious nerfing.


I agree that the those argument are amusing but this statement is also false. If they nerfed fire damage by 1%. And we were hitting the enrage timer at the exact moment before we wiped then that doesn't mean that fire was OP as a raid group they come to expectations of being able to down bosses and it sucks when a nerf happens and you are unable. But that argument isn't a good one against nerfs.

12/07/2012 08:20 AMPosted by Azloran
"OMG LOOK AT THIS: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Elegon/10N/all/7/60/default/ THIS IS EVIDENCE THAT WE SUCK."


Accept no one intelligent is saying mage damage sucks, they are saying fire mage damage sucks. Which is does as shown by that. Just because its not the worst does not mean that it doesn't suck.
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1 Troll Rogue
0
You have to wait for the median dps to level off to see what the real effect of the hotfix was.
It's still dropping... hard and fast. It probably won't level off until the weekend data shows up.
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90 Draenei Mage
16945
12/07/2012 05:13 AMPosted by Peverell
Frost and Arcane, based on recent parses now that good players are playing them, are clearly ahead of a lot of other specs and some entire classes


I strongly disagree with the notion that frost is ahead of "alot of specs". It probably qualifies as barely viable but nothing more.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
8800
You have to wait for the median dps to level off to see what the real effect of the hotfix was.
It's still dropping... hard and fast. It probably won't level off until the weekend data shows up.


Yeah, until we see parses trending even or up we won't know that all the pre-nerf data is out of the system. I just wanted to give a week's retrospective. But you're right, it will probably get even lower from here.

Didn't GC say let's meet back here Saturday and see if Fire Mages were the lowest? See you tomorrow bro.
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100 Human Mage
10570
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/drbx57iuwpap1whr/

First time doing arcane, could have done better, mistakes were made. But figured I'd throw the parse into the bin here. Have at it.
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90 Gnome Mage
6870
Is it just me or do the majority of these parses show that Mages instead of being 10% ahead of the next player in the raid are now solidly in the middle?

I mean...isn't that a good thing?


We are probably seeing people who are better players who were at the top are now in the middle. That's the problem with a small sampling of volunteer posts. We mostly see people who perform well posting. If it were that fire mages went to the middle of the pack we could live with that. But raidbots which shows the sampling is trending to show going from near the top to bottom, via compound nerfs. While other classes near the top continue to increase.
I'm glad hunters got a buff, they needed it.
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1 Troll Rogue
0
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10N/all/7/60/default/

One of these things is not like the other...
Come on, sing it with me!

There's nothing quite like paying for a game where you'll spend the next 2 tiers of raids getting back to where you were a week ago, dps-wise.
Edited by Freemarket on 12/7/2012 8:40 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
14225
12/07/2012 08:17 AMPosted by Wexler
Fire is fine on cleave fights. Fire is in the bottom third on almost every other fight.


I'm confused I guess, isn't this exactly what you'd expect? Obviously a cleave heavy spec would be one of the worst on single target since if it were near the top it's damage on cleave fights would be completley imbalanced. Seems to be working as intended, no?
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Tomorrow is Saturday, one week from when the hotfix was issued.

Someone has to take the task to link this thread to Ghostcrawler.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
8800
Tomorrow is Saturday, one week from when the hotfix was issued.

Someone has to take the task to link this thread to Ghostcrawler.


Hotfix was last Thursday.
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90 Human Mage
8970
12/07/2012 08:20 AMPosted by Azloran
Then I play a spec that's below fire mages, not even considering arcane is 4th on that same list.


At first glance it may seem that you do play a spec whose DPS is below a fire mages, but in actuality that is incorrect. There is very simple reason why certain classes such as yours will parse low. Elemental shaman, balance druids and shadow priest all have one thing in common, that being they are all off specs for healers. Obviously in most cases a shaman healer with a dps off spec will bring the spec's DPS down as they typically do not have the ideal gear for the ele spec. So when you look at the logs and see that fire mages are parsing 18th and two of the classes they are ahead of, are two classes I just mentioned then you can ascertain that a pure elemental shaman will do significantly more dps than a fire mage, so we can say that fire mages rank 20th out of 21 and not 18th of 21.

Is it just me or do the majority of these parses show that Mages instead of being 10% ahead of the next player in the raid are now solidly in the middle?I mean...isn't that a good thing?


If fire mages were solidly in the middle that would be a good thing unfortunately that is not the case and day by day we are seeing fire mage numbers decrease dramatically. The issue has little to do with a nerf it has to do with the significance and implications of the nerf.
Edited by Rainmkr on 12/7/2012 9:12 AM PST
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
Fire's mean and median numbers have certainly declined sharply since Wednesday morning.

Also of interest: this is the first time I've loaded Raidbots to find that there were enough parses for Arcane and Frost to have the specs enabled by default on the display.
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90 Human Mage
8970
Fire is fine on cleave fights. Fire is in the bottom third on almost every other fight.I'm confused I guess, isn't this exactly what you'd expect? Obviously a cleave heavy spec would be one of the worst on single target since if it were near the top it's damage on cleave fights would be completley imbalanced. Seems to be working as intended, no?


Although I understand your line of thought it's simply not correct. Yes it is possible that one can correlate with the other but it is just as possible that one does not correlate with the other. In this case it does not.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
12/07/2012 05:23 AMPosted by Peverell
Nah, I give a !@#$ about proving idiots wrong. I don't care even slightly about the balance of the game in PvE and barely care in PvP.


You, a hunter who doesn't even PvE, have been trolling every single mage thread over and over and over for a week. Go away.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
I don't understand why anyone would sincerely reply to Peverell.

On-topic:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-zmwe038utw4kd1e2/

These are my frost parses from H Dogs, H Feng, some wipes on H Elegon and the rest on normal. The only thing notable is that unlike every other pet in the game, as far as I know, Water Elemental falls down the hole on Elegon when the floor despawns, as it did twice on our Elegon kill.
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1 Troll Rogue
0
I don't understand why anyone would sincerely reply to Peverell.

On-topic:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-zmwe038utw4kd1e2/

These are my frost parses from H Dogs, H Feng, some wipes on H Elegon and the rest on normal. The only thing notable is that unlike every other pet in the game, as far as I know, Water Elemental falls down the hole on Elegon when the floor despawns, as it did twice on our Elegon kill.


Rofl that is hilarious.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
12/07/2012 10:08 AMPosted by Mahourai
The only thing notable is that unlike every other pet in the game, as far as I know, Water Elemental falls down the hole on Elegon when the floor despawns, as it did twice on our Elegon kill.


/facepalm
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
12/07/2012 08:26 AMPosted by Nert
DPS isn't a monolithic single-number thing. Arcane is weaker at movement than Fire, so a good balance would account for that and it would be stronger on fights with less movement. If this balance is reasonably well struck, and the difference is not so huge that people outside of bleeding-edge progression guilds feel compelled to switch specs from encounter to encounter, then we should see a reasonably similar number of people playing each spec.


IMO the above statement is filled with subjective words


Of course it is — because this is always going to be a pretty subjective sort of balance. Every tier will contain a different number of encounters that favor mobility by different degrees and with different levels of importance. It would not be possible to say something like, "If Arcane is ahead by W% on encounters on which you spend less than X% of your time moving, and Fire is ahead by Y% on encounters with Z cleave targets, balance has been achieved." To a great extent, this is going to be about what feels right to the devs — and different players will tend to disagree on whether or not it feels right to them.

As I said, if we wind up in a situation where only 5% of players are using Fire, then it seems clear that they've plunged Fire from too high to too low relative to the other two specs. Ideally, we wind up in a situation where everybody is using the spec they want to use, rather than feeling forced into or out of any particular spec.
Edited by Lhivera on 12/7/2012 10:29 AM PST
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