For the love of God buff Recuperate!

90 Human Rogue
9475
I seriously hate doing dailies as a rogue when my Recuperate ticks for a mere 10k while fighting 2 NPC's takes my health down to 20%.....
Edited by Doopree on 12/5/2012 3:59 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16040
Sap one?
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90 Draenei Paladin
7295
12/05/2012 04:15 PMPosted by Prieto
Sap one?


Buff recuperate?

Why should anyone have to find a work around for weak mechanics?
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90 Human Rogue
9475
12/05/2012 04:15 PMPosted by Prieto
Sap one?


Ummmm....I do....
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So... Your problem is that your self healing that eats up less than half your finisher resource (Combo Points) is as good as mine if I use half of mine (Holy Power used on WoG)?
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85 Blood Elf Mage
5510
Actually a lot of dps specs need a tweak up in terms of PvE healing. Frost DKs are similar. But I think Blizzard wants to reduce healing QQ in PvP...except for Warriors, obviously.
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90 Goblin Rogue
7875
12/05/2012 06:34 PMPosted by Sharrow
So... Your problem is that your self healing that eats up less than half your finisher resource (Combo Points) is as good as mine if I use half of mine (Holy Power used on WoG)?
You're going to need to clarify what you are trying to say, because it doesn't make sense. Recup consumes all CP's, recup is incomparable to ret paladin self healing.
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90 Gnome Monk
7430
12/05/2012 07:52 PMPosted by Leonoir
So... Your problem is that your self healing that eats up less than half your finisher resource (Combo Points) is as good as mine if I use half of mine (Holy Power used on WoG)?
You're going to need to clarify what you are trying to say, because it doesn't make sense. Recup consumes all CP's, recup is incomparable to ret paladin self healing.


Recup consumes all finisher resources once every 30ish seconds assuming you don't have the glyph of deadly momentum and kill a mob during that time frame. What he is saying is that to get the same level of healing he has to use half of his "finisher" style moves on heals instead of damage. Also, use shiv+leeching poison more.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Uh huh. And what is the rogue to do about a snare? Leeching takes up that "defensive" poison slot which Crippling would normally reside.

OP is talking about dailies. No need for crippling.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16195
Leeching poison?
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12/05/2012 09:02 PMPosted by Krinu
Uh huh. And what is the rogue to do about a snare? Leeching takes up that "defensive" poison slot which Crippling would normally reside.

OP is talking about dailies. No need for crippling.


Leeching poison heal is a joke.

All rogue healing is a joke.

observe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjrIfD3FvkQ
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16195
12/05/2012 09:46 PMPosted by Freschetta

OP is talking about dailies. No need for crippling.


Leeching poison heal is a joke.

All rogue healing is a joke.

observe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjrIfD3FvkQ

30k dps + leeching poison + recuperate + 300k hp pool = 6k health per second. Me as a hunter am taking about 10k damage per melee attack from enemy mobs. Since rogue healing is so dependent on damage dealt, I suggest to stop auto attacking those two mobs and start using some defensive abilities. You are a rogue after all, you are supposed to be slippery, shouldn't expect to last indefinitely against multiple mobs attacking you, otherwise what's he point.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16195

30k dps + leeching poison + recuperate + 300k hp pool = 6k health per second. Me as a hunter am taking about 10k damage per melee attack from enemy mobs. Since rogue healing is so dependent on damage dealt, I suggest to stop auto attacking those two mobs and start using some defensive abilities. You are a rogue after all, you are supposed to be slippery, shouldn't expect to last indefinitely against multiple mobs attacking you, otherwise what's he point.


no

leeching poison only heals from physical damage done. It does not heal from poison damage. And if you think we are actually slippery you have gone full retard.

Sorry, I am just quoting GC, no need to get all overly defensive and overly offensive, I know rogues want buffs to their heals so that they can just put on leeching poison and keep recup up so they don't die to quest mobs, but that isn't really the point.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16040
12/05/2012 04:25 PMPosted by Sariph
Sap one?


Buff recuperate?

Why should anyone have to find a work around for weak mechanics?


So, feint, leeaching, evasion & combat readiness is not enough survival now you want tho have 2V1 damage be irrelevant by simply using recoup? Why not use your entire tool set?
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85 Gnome Rogue
2110
12/05/2012 10:04 PMPosted by Spinnerdh
Sorry, I am just quoting GC, no need to get all overly defensive and overly offensive, I know rogues want buffs to their heals so that they can just put on leeching poison and keep recup up so they don't die to quest mobs, but that isn't really the point.


Many Rogues like self healing, but not all Rogues do. I really like how that healing tear + glyph is designed, it allows players the choice of strong(er) self heals, active mitigation (Elusiveness Feint), or Cheat Death. The problem isn't with the tier design, but with the strength of the individual talents.

Cheat Death was nerfed (in Wrath?) and used alongside Prep, Elusiveness, Improved Recuperate, the Quickening healing bonus, and even Combat Readiness (granted, a CR that eventually shared CD with Cloak). Used with a nerfed version of Recuperate and finisher juggling, Cheat Death simply isn't where it needs to be.

Leeching Poison is a nice idea, but it only procs off strikes, not poison/bleed damage (I wonder if it procs off Shadow Blades, which as shadow damage might not be defined as "strikes."). It is also reduced both by a target's PvP resistance and then a player's own PvP power. "Strikes" also means that a Rogue has to be in melee range and attacking, whereas old 2x talented Recuperate would keep ticking regardless. All that makes it almost useless for PvP.

Elusiveness on Feint is great, but you can't Feint when you lose control of your character. In MoP, there's a lot more character loss CC out there, yet Rogues have almost no means to break or avoid it. People talent Step because BoS (breaks roots/snares) costs too much energy, 2m Vanish breaks roots/snares, and 2m Cloak breaks magical roots/snares and immunies (doesn't break) magical CC that causes loss of control of character ... and that's it. 2 2m CDs that are wasted on breaking a simple root/snare, and nothing to break most CCs.

Rogue survivability is in a bad spot. The tier design is good, but the abilities just aren't quite strong enough to let Rogues survive being focused for long.
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87 Human Mage
6470
Leeching Poison is a nice idea, but it only procs off strikes, not poison/bleed damage (I wonder if it procs off Shadow Blades, which as shadow damage might not be defined as "strikes."). It is also reduced both by a target's PvP resistance and then a player's own PvP power. "Strikes" also means that a Rogue has to be in melee range and attacking, whereas old 2x talented Recuperate would keep ticking regardless. All that makes it almost useless for PvP.

Elusiveness on Feint is great, but you can't Feint when you lose control of your character. In MoP, there's a lot more character loss CC out there, yet Rogues have almost no means to break or avoid it. People talent Step because BoS (breaks roots/snares) costs too much energy, 2m Vanish breaks roots/snares, and 2m Cloak breaks magical roots/snares and immunies (doesn't break) magical CC that causes loss of control of character ... and that's it. 2 2m CDs that are wasted on breaking a simple root/snare, and nothing to break most CCs.

Rogue survivability is in a bad spot. The tier design is good, but the abilities just aren't quite strong enough to let Rogues survive being focused for long.


Nice discussion of rogue survivability issues in pvp, however:

I seriously hate doing dailies as a rogue when my Recuperate ticks for a mere 10k while fighting 2 NPC's takes my health down to 20%.....


not the topic brought up in the OP.

I have a rogue, and if my cooldowns aren't up I don't want to be fighting multiple mobs either but, unlike many other classes, rogues actually have tools to deal with that (stealth immediately comes to mind). If you are dying doing dailies it generally means you're doing something wrong.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
9290
12/05/2012 06:34 PMPosted by Sharrow
So... Your problem is that your self healing that eats up less than half your finisher resource (Combo Points) is as good as mine if I use half of mine (Holy Power used on WoG)?


I've had WoG crit for 68k in PVP with my current crappy gear.

Paladins whining about WOG are silly, some of your top rets (Vangaurds, Lobster) say it's fine.

25-40k no crit wogs are still better than 10k ticks of Recuperate.
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90 Troll Shaman
4355
Sap one?


Buff recuperate?

Why should anyone have to find a work around for weak mechanics?


I think Recup needs to be removed from the game, honestly. It's just another hassle to worry about, especially since it's another finisher on top of the already hefty finisher toolkit.

From a design perspective, it's the only button rogues will be hitting for survival if it gets buffed, and in it's current state is only worth hitting when you plan on re-entering stealth/vanishing.

I'd rather just see it take a hike. Rogues don't need recuperate, they need to be good at CC and slipperyness, not healing.

Now mind you, I'm not saying "nerf rogues", I'm saying "buff rogues, but in different ways than self heals."
Edited by Zamzikhan on 12/6/2012 11:02 AM PST
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