For the love of God buff Recuperate!

90 Troll Shaman
0
12/06/2012 03:51 AMPosted by Reliabrø
So... Your problem is that your self healing that eats up less than half your finisher resource (Combo Points) is as good as mine if I use half of mine (Holy Power used on WoG)?


I've had WoG crit for 68k in PVP with my current crappy gear.

Paladins whining about WOG are silly, some of your top rets (Vangaurds, Lobster) say it's fine.

25-40k no crit wogs are still better than 10k ticks of Recuperate.


Storm glyphed Mael-surges still get me for 80-90k crits in my non-malev set. In terms of utility, part of the hybrid toolkit is healing, not rogues. The only pure that should have any sort of healing is Warlocks because that's always been their theme, the 'tanky' caster.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
14520
Blade Furry, they're dead.

Bam.
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12/06/2012 11:00 AMPosted by Zamzikhan
I think Recup needs to be removed from the game, honestly. It's just another hassle to worry about, especially since it's another finisher on top of the already hefty finisher toolkit.


I also want it removed or merged into another finisher. At the very least, SnD and Recup should be the same finish. Maybe rename it -- Slice, Dice N' Heal.
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12/06/2012 03:51 AMPosted by Reliabrø
So... Your problem is that your self healing that eats up less than half your finisher resource (Combo Points) is as good as mine if I use half of mine (Holy Power used on WoG)?


I've had WoG crit for 68k in PVP with my current crappy gear.

Paladins whining about WOG are silly, some of your top rets (Vangaurds, Lobster) say it's fine.

25-40k no crit wogs are still better than 10k ticks of Recuperate.
The OP in the gear he's got on will see 11K Recup ticks. that's 110K of healing per 30s. A WoG averages about 33K, call it 36K in better gear than I have, so 9K per point of Holy Power. That means that Recup, at 10 Combo Points per minute, heals as much as WoG at 9 Holy Power per minute. That's a broadly comparable proportion of each class' resources.

Now, obviously, if this is insufficient healing a Rogue has to use a different solution to that which a Ret will use. Ret's switch to Seal of Insight and use even more Holy Power on healing. A Rogue has to use control and survivability cooldowns - but they have those tools, just as Ret has the capacity to switch to more healing. [I'm talking questing, dailies, etc., here.]

My point is that if a Rogue's self-healing is insufficient for solo questing at the level they currently have, a lot of classes/specs are also in trouble. I'm not finding it so on my Rogue, but on the other hand they're only 87th (but they can handle multiple mushans in Townlong Steppes when farming leather).
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90 Undead Rogue
13680
12/06/2012 11:00 AMPosted by Zamzikhan
I'd rather just see it take a hike. Rogues don't need recuperate, they need to be good at CC and slipperyness, not healing.

Self-heals are here to stay, unfortunately. Done well, they're a pretty good universal fix to a class' survivability issues. That said, Recuperate is arduous, inconvenient, and the return is not worth what we put in compared to the damage we're taking.
Edited by Kanoi on 12/6/2012 3:55 PM PST
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90 Troll Shaman
0
I'd rather just see it take a hike. Rogues don't need recuperate, they need to be good at CC and slipperyness, not healing.

Self-heals are here to stay, unfortunately. Done well, they're a pretty good universal fix to a class' survivability issues. That said, Recuperate is arduous, inconvenient, and the return is not worth what we put in compared to the damage we're taking.


I don't mind self heals on non-healing classes as a form of survival, but to an extent. For Warlocks (example), they're designed around self-healing, healthstones, drain life, etc, so it makes sense design wise. They're the 'tanky' casters. A bad example would be Chimera Shot (3% every 9-10 seconds) for MM hunters. It's not enough to make a difference and probably wouldn't even matter if even 5% was attached to it. I would also mention recup, but you've done me that favor.

Rogues, I always thought of them as the single target CC machines with a variety of debuffs or crippling effects to reduce their enemies' output.

Recup was added in Cata, when Blizzard didn't feel like giving rogues more CC and instead hooked them and every other class and their mother up with self healing. I'd be okay with self healing if it was more niche and not just doled out to everyone, sort of like how only 3 classes in the game have spammable CCs and another 3 only have a readily available offensive dispel. That way, at least they can reinforce each class/spec into their intended design a little bit better.

12/06/2012 03:54 PMPosted by Kanoi
Done well, they're a pretty good universal fix to a class' survivability issues.


This particular part holds truth, but I just don't agree. I personally feel a majority of the balance issues comes from too many combat mechanics being too similar per class. It's difficult to tune a combat mechanic like self-healing to a class that was designed around never healing themselves (Recup, for example).

Imagine Purge given to a Warrior or Rogue, or Stealth/Vanish on a Warlock or Priest. They would either have to be mild (which makes them unfun and very situational) or non-existant because they would simply be too strong on those classes.

I do agree that if the self healing works on both ends, it's probably a smart idea to keep it. However, I just see much better ways to solve survival issues.
Edited by Zamzikhan on 12/6/2012 10:35 PM PST
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90 Troll Rogue
4815
lol as good as yours that rich.. Im sorry but ret pally healing is far better than a rogues and if you think otherwise play a rogue or get your head checked out.
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81 Human Warrior
9530
12/05/2012 10:08 PMPosted by Prieto
feint


He's clearly not talking about AOE damage.

A WoG averages about 33K, call it 36K in better gear than I have,


WoG can also crit.
Edited by Waifu on 12/10/2012 6:54 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
5195
I beg to differ.Almost ever class in the game now has some way or another to get some heals off why should it be any different for rogues? I'm pretty surer that rogues never had a problem with recuperate when it actually did something it was something you could use after sacrificing some dps and combo points if you were getting slammed hard by those big burst classes.The problem with rogues right now is that GS wants rogues to be a control class which is fine but when classes like mages ,warriors and locks have more cc survive than why even be a rogue to begin with when you can peel do more damage and love longer with other classes.If you want us to be a "control class" than we are gonna actually have to have more "control"than a class that can global..I think they should buff recup abit it would help rogues live abit longer than the length of there 2 survive cds they have. One of them not even a full survive ability given that almost every class now puts a dot or bleed on you so without being in tandom with cloak of shadows vanish also dosent do much accept makes you vanish than pop right back uo due to the dot effect.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7495
12/30/2012 08:02 PMPosted by Shivale
I beg to differ.Almost ever class in the game now has some way or another to get some heals off why should it be any different for rogues? I'm pretty surer that rogues never had a problem with recuperate when it actually did something it was something you could use after sacrificing some dps and combo points if you were getting slammed hard by those big burst classes.The problem with rogues right now is that GS wants rogues to be a control class which is fine but when classes like mages ,warriors and locks have more cc survive than why even be a rogue to begin with when you can peel do more damage and love longer with other classes.If you want us to be a "control class" than we are gonna actually have to have more "control"than a class that can global..I think they should buff recup abit it would help rogues live abit longer than the length of there 2 survive cds they have. One of them not even a full survive ability given that almost every class now puts a dot or bleed on you so without being in tandom with cloak of shadows vanish also dosent do much accept makes you vanish than pop right back uo due to the dot effect.


What happened just in cata was that rogues will heal back in a stealth/vanish. The only reason mages survive in arenas is because of iceblock. Otherwise they can die pretty fast considering ice barrier is dispellable.
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90 Gnome Rogue
16195
It doesn't matter whether or not you like Rogues self-healing. It's the design Blizzard chose to move rogues towards and it's here to stay.

No one enjoys dying to a class in a silence/stun lockdown from 100-0. On the flipside, it's not fun being a freekill just because someone caught you out of stealth and got the jump on you. So blizzard decided to move away from the high-control/low-survivability playstyle into something a little more sturdier and counter-able.

The problem in MoP is that the survivability is too low.

Is buffing recuperate the answer? I don't know. As witnessed in Cata it's certainly possible for the ability to be too strong, but it's nowhere near that at the moment.

That said with all the other changes on the 5.2 ptr patch for rogues I don't know if a recuperate buff would sit well. People are already concerned rogues will be too strong. Should wait and see how other classes getting nerfed in addition to some of the small up and coming rogue buffs play out
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7495
Another thing with an ability like recup is that it's a hot. That's also partly the reason why second wind is so strong.

Sure ret heals are better simply due to the fact that it can be cast on others as well, but it has to be cast which also means you can't do it when silenced amongst other limitations.

Keeping recup up is not that hard. We just saw this in cata. You can get energy back since it's a finishing move from relentless strikes so it's not that bad.

It's a difficult task and yeah I don't think it's a matter of just buffing recup. Look at all the dk's complaining with plate, but I say who the heck doesn't get blown up these days? The only saving grace is cds like bubble and iceblock.

If you're talking just questing then that's laughable. Rogues were never able to tank. I leveled one before it had recup. You just had to be careful with pulls or in my case went combat.
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100 Human Rogue
15840
12/05/2012 06:34 PMPosted by Sharrow
So... Your problem is that your self healing that eats up less than half your finisher resource (Combo Points) is as good as mine if I use half of mine (Holy Power used on WoG)?


HAHAHHAHAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAAHHHAHAHA

Are you that stupid, quoting this forever, firstly different classes are different.

Secondly, Mr Ignorant, lets assume I am playing sub, and I keep up recuperate, slice and dice, and rupture, by the time I get enough combo points to evis, 2/3 of my finishers need to be refreshed, let alone being able to use kidneyshot as well, too many finishers to juggle.

Moral of the previous statement?; the cost to benefit ratio is bad for recuperate, to keep it up, it forces rogue to do little damage, and receive little to no healing back.

I'd be fine with recuperate's cost if:

- Ability went back to cataclysm (5% heal per 3 seconds +6% damage reduction)
or
- The resources for the ability where lowered substantially to compensate for how shtty the heal is.

I honestly don't even like recuperate, I rather have a direct heal via combo points and energy, so go back to your seat and zip your lips young paladin, we don't have free heals like you.

12/30/2012 08:38 PMPosted by Positron
What happened just in cata was that rogues will heal back in a stealth/vanish. The only reason mages survive in arenas is because of iceblock. Otherwise they can die pretty fast considering ice barrier is dispellable.


The old recuperate took over a minute to heal a rogue to full, that was with 4% per 3 seconds with 20% increased healing.

You could of easily healed, bandaged, ate by then; don't over exaggerate.

12/30/2012 09:17 PMPosted by Positron
Keeping recup up is not that hard. We just saw this in cata. You can get energy back since it's a finishing move from relentless strikes so it's not that bad.


You clearly don't know of what you are talking about, In cataclysm energetic recovery was on recuperate, meaning we didn't have to keep up slice and dice, but now energetic is on slice and dice, please know your facts before blabbing.
Edited by Starbûck on 12/30/2012 11:08 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7495
The fact that rogues can heal back up in stealth is what makes it overpowered, but they don't need to wait the full duration because they open on you again which means you are stunned while recup is still ticking away. That is the advantage of a hot. You can say all you want, but everyone saw how overpowered it was in cata.

I said relentless strikes which is a different ability.
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100 Human Rogue
11810
The fact that rogues can heal back up in stealth is what makes it overpowered, but they don't need to wait the full duration because they open on you again which means you are stunned while recup is still ticking away. That is the advantage of a hot. You can say all you want, but everyone saw how overpowered it was in cata.

I said relentless strikes which is a different ability.
healing up while in stealth was only over powered in duels which we all know don't matter at all. in real pvp a rogue sitting in stealth is not doing any damage.
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100 Human Rogue
15840
It was never overpowered, it was just strong with good defense, once again clearly you do not know what you're talking about.

Recuperate wasn't even the issue with rogues in cata, high burst (because of pve gear) and high defense with exceptional control, combination was too much.

cata version of recuperate will won't rival or match Secondwind now, so stop talking crap.

12/31/2012 12:01 AMPosted by Positron
The fact that rogues can heal back up in stealth is what makes it overpowere


12/30/2012 09:36 PMPosted by Starbûck
The old recuperate took over a minute to heal a rogue to full, that was with 4% per 3 seconds with 20% increased healing.


OVER A MINUTE, that is forever in pvp terms, what where you doing the whole time? window licking?
Edited by Starbûck on 12/31/2012 12:15 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7495
Second wind is being nerfed and unlike it recup can be used any time.

Recup was complained about in cata. Just saying. You won't be happy until it's overpowered.
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100 Human Rogue
15840
Second wind is being nerfed and unlike it recup can be used any time.

Recup was complained about in cata. Just saying. You won't be happy until it's overpowered.


Just stop embarrassing your self, clearly you have never played or researched rogue.

I will once again quote why people thought recuperate was the issue.

12/31/2012 12:14 AMPosted by Starbûck
high defense with exceptional control, combination was too much.


Its like complaining about a guild for the actions of 1 person.
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Second wind is being nerfed and unlike it recup can be used any time.

Recup was complained about in cata. Just saying. You won't be happy until it's overpowered.


You're right, it was complained about, but it was always a stupid complaint. Healing back to full in stealth via Recuperate was never an issue. It's not what made Rogues strong, and it's certainly not what made Rogues OP. As others here have mentioned, a full duration Recup would only bring a Rogue nearly half up, and over a duration of 30 seconds. Leave your teammate(s) for that long and you lose the match.

------

I'm fine with Recup where it is. Rogues who like strong healing can still glyph it (to 3.5% health) and run Leeching Poison; Rogues who don't like it can talent Cheat Death or Elusiveness instead.

That said, Rogue survivability is still poor. Prep should help, a lot, but lets not forget that Prep is a 5 minute (FIVE MINUTE!!!) CD, resets several long CDs, not just the one you need, and kills any "time earned" (unlike, say, double Charge). Prep, like the CDs it resets, is also an activated ability. That's fine for dailies/questing/raids, but still leaves Rogues extremely vulnerable in PvP.

Don't get me wrong, its a big buff, putting back something Rogues should not have lost in MoP in the first place. Will it be enough? Hopefully, PTR will give Blizzard enough data to tell. If not, and it goes live, Rogues may be struggling a while longer.
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100 Human Rogue
15840
They need to remove the combo point requirement or energy.
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