Progression gearing, input needed

90 Night Elf Druid
10655
I've been a raid lead for a bit. Not the best but w/e- anyways someone who's been in more progressed guilds and I had a discussion and it really had me wondering.

Typically I think that you gear up tanks and heals first, and while a loot system (i'm now going to use EPGP so any comments here would be appreciated as well) balances things out some- we also talked about how an upgrade on a geared player produces more overall dps than an upgrade to an undergeared player.

Specifically the argument was a sp dagger going to a 485 player would benefit him more than the same dagger going to a 465 player. Everything else aside- such as the 465 being a new raider obviously- I made the argument you'd want to gear the lower ilvl person first to hit berserk timers, and he said the higher ilvl player would benefit more. Also he said that as long as heals have enough spirit- you should be gearing up tanks and dps first. He has more experience in heroic raiding this tier than me, and overall does alot better job at dps and general output, so I do credit his thoughts, but it runs contrary to what I've thought since like Vanilla.

Anywyas, EPGP comments would be appreciated and how to gear a progression raid (we're going into heroics soon)
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
The dps argument is overstated.

You need enough dps to kill the boss before enrage and to deal with specific mechanics, anything more is just icing on the cake.

Your healers need to have enough throughput and mana regen to make sure people aren't dying and they're not going OOM. Anything more is just icing on the cake.

Your tanks need enough mitigation and stamina to deal with the burst damage and to help keep the healers from going OOM. Anything more is icing on the cake.

Your healers *can* make up for your dps, as can your tanks, but only up to a point. Likewise for every other role in that raid.

I agree that dps should generally get gear before tanks and healers, within reason. But your bias is fairly clear there Sub.
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90 Worgen Druid
10695
12/05/2012 12:19 PMPosted by Rvalue
But your bias is fairly clear there Sub.


I'm a healer.

Give me gear last please, that's how bosses die.
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90 Night Elf Druid
5980
12/05/2012 11:29 AMPosted by Subrosian
1. You gear DPS first.


Wasn't vanilla really the only time where 'gear tanks first, then heals, then maybe DPS' made sense? It's strange to me that the idea persists when it really only made sense when enrage timers were rare, tank threat was weak and gear dependent, tank gear was the only real defense, bosses hit tanks extremely hard compared to health, and some encounters required lots of specific tank gear (resistance fights and things like 4-horsemen)? I remember noticing how encounters had changed so much in BC that even in normal dungeons good DPS vs bad made a noticeable difference in difficulty.
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90 Worgen Druid
16550
DPS > Tanks/Heals. Obviously though you would switch some focus to healer gearing if you are on a healer check fight.

Pretty much everything Sub said is correct.
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90 Worgen Warrior
13950
Honestly you can handle this as you see fit adjusting it as necessary. I use EP/GP and regardless if it is progression or not we give out EP for boss kills and people receive GP for obtaining gear. The only exception to this rule is the first 2-3 weeks of content everyone just /rolls so that PR can be accumulated. And since I give out bonus EP to player who donate what we need for food and such that helps even more.

So far what I've done with crafted gear is take 1 tank and 1 Healer/DPS who had the highest priority and try to get them crafted pieces that week and giving them GP for that. And just continue on down the line, never hitting the same person twice unless no one needs anything or we've already gone through the list already. And doing 25man raiding makes things easier on us with crafted gear since we get many duplicates that end up getting DE'd (very annoying when its the same cloth gear no one wants). Of course I take myself out of the rotation and craft everything on my own so that others can get gear :P

I stand by the statement that you need everyone to be able to do their job well enough if you plan on downing a boss. So if you're having problems with a tank's survival either it is a healer or tank issue. Sort it out on a per case basis, sure you need DPS to be able to down a boss before enrage but if you've started raiding and people are raid ready and have sufficient gear to do that content. Then they need to be strong enough to pull the numbers required of them. If they can't then that is something gear may not fix and they may need to dig deeper to find the solution.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12810
For the most part, agree with Sub. If your dps is killing things quicker, it's by default easier on healers and tanks. They don't have to survive/budget mana for as long when things aren't going to the very edge of the enrage timer.

On a case by case basis, I might dispute a couple of items under specific circumstances, like it's a tank's/healer's BIS piece and a strong upgrade, and the dps receiving would not only have to reforge, but would be looking to replace as soon as possible, especially if it wasn't much of an upgrade to the dps in question.

But that's only for very specific items - in general, the faster things die, the easier the tank's and healer's jobs are.
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
12/05/2012 01:10 PMPosted by Subrosian
You don't do serious progression raiding, so you wouldn't know.


Now you're in a catch-22, the OP is not doing progression raiding either, so why are you giving him advice that isn't applicable?

Or admit that 'progression' is relative, and all groups gear up to down bosses, making my opinion just as valid.

Or there's the 3rd option, go passive aggressive and start insulting 'lower progression guilds' in the hopes I get offended (and not the OP?). That's always an option, you should do that. It's what I would do if I were you.

And to be clear, I agree that you should gear your dps first. But your argument is overstated, what you're doing is employing hyperbole to make a point. It isn't going to help the OP make better decisions.

Stronger healers keep dps alive (you know, that role you think is super important) and stronger tanks allow your healers more time to keep the dps alive.

No reasonable person is going to agree with your claim that there is literally ZERO benefit to gearing up tanks or healers. You can make your point without the needless hyperbole.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
12/05/2012 10:58 AMPosted by Crazythorn
Typically I think that you gear up tanks and heals first,


no.

Gearing up tanks is bad and your tanks should feel bad.

Edit:

At the expense of DPS, obviously.

12/05/2012 11:29 AMPosted by Subrosian
1. You gear DPS first


Your healers need to have enough throughput and mana regen to make sure people aren't dying and they're not going OOM. Anything more is just icing on the cake.

Your tanks need enough mitigation and stamina to deal with the burst damage and to help keep the healers from going OOM. Anything more is icing on the cake.


And "enough" generally comes from the gear they get anyway because nobody else wants it.
Edited by Ðemolition on 12/6/2012 2:18 AM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
10295
Sub and others, thank you for the clear explanation about who to gear first. Logic wins, as usual.

As one who is "less progressed" but still progressing, I greatly appreciate the accurate advice given by much more advanced raiders.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
13815
No reasonable person is going to agree with your claim that there is literally ZERO benefit to gearing up tanks or healers. You can make your point without the needless hyperbole.


That isn't what he said. His specific point is that there is no benefit to extra tank durability or healing capacity beyond a certain threshold. Once your tanks can stay up until the enrage timer and the healers can handle all the non-avoidable damage, then it is more helpful for the raid to get gear to the people that can push you past the timer.

Even beyond that, good DPS alllows you to push phases faster, further decreasing load on the healers. Two healing fights that you learned with three becomes practical, as the healers can use higher HPS / less efficient heals, and a larger percentage of the fight occurs under tanking cooldowns.

This is not a statement that gear on tanks and healers does not matter. The whole argument presupposes that your raid group can already down some set of bosses and is regularly obtaining drops. The question is what is most helpful from a progression perspective for the next boss you are working on
Edited by Siantha on 12/6/2012 7:14 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
10655
Thank you all for your sage words of advice =) I am seeing loot differently now. And of course its a case by case basis- I rarely have loot issues but had some recently so thought getting some advice would be good, and it worked out great.

Thanks again =)
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90 Night Elf Druid
5980
12/05/2012 02:47 PMPosted by Subrosian
However, the outdated "Tanks first" mentality persists because in many lower progression guilds the quality of DPS is... well... low. The Tank magically manages to stay alive through enrage or something, and they suddenly think "ah, that's how we do it, keep the Tank alive"


And there are lot fewer tanks than DPS, so it's way easier to find a single good tank and slap a lot of gear on them than try to sort out why your DPS is playing badly. At the start of BC I was in a really sucky guild on my old server, but didn't have enough experience to realize just how bad they were and how clueless the leadership was. It was eye opening to go from struggling to get through Black Morass non-heroic and Curator to only having trouble with things like shattered halls heroic (which was insanely brutal) with no change in my gear and similar or worse healers. It's too bad there's not an easy way for most people to experience the difference like that, it was really eye opening.
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