Talents and Opinions: The good and the bad.

90 Undead Rogue
10145
Ghostcrawler recently said that talents will be readdressed in 5.2 (I will link the quote at the end for completeness), so I was thinking now might be a good time to get a discussion going on talents, specfically what people like, don't like, and want to change. If you're the type of person who likes answering specific questions, here ya go:


  • What is/are your favorite talent/s?
  • What talents would you like to see slight changes on?
  • What talents do you think should be removed?
  • Any ideas on totally new talents or changes?
  • Same questions go with tiers.


Love, Haileaus

Edit: Forgot to post the quote, here it is:
Patch 5.2 is going to take a look at what talents are very popular or very unpopular and try and bring them back in line. Overall though, the new talent system is working out well. Ideally there should be at least two talent choices per tier that are good, if not three.


I get the impression from the quote and from the fact that Bliz knows what talents people take that they already have a good idea of what talents need work in each tier, so suggesting changes to talents/tiers might be more useful than just stating that you don't like something. That said saying what part of a talent you don't like would probably be useful.
Edited by Haileaus on 12/5/2012 10:49 AM PST
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90 Undead Rogue
7430
copy past from a thread i made earlier.

Shuriken Grapple- 25 yard range. 45 second cooldown. lasts 15 seconds.

You throw a shuriken at high speed toward your target which hooks on time him causing both of you to tether together. the tether increases your speed by 30% and makes you immune to movement impairing effects as long as your running towards your grapple target. If you click shuriken grapple while your tethered to someone, it will launch you towards your target removing snares and movement impairing effects. The cooldown doesnt start until you activate the ability a second time or the grapel is removed via target getting out of range or the grapple falling off after its duration ends.

A player must run 30 yards away from the rogue to drop the grapple, but doing so will result in a 3 second stun. 30 yards so that once u activate the ability on someone at 25 yards they dont just jump away 1 yard and get the grapple off the second you use it.

what do you guys think, obviously some tweaking on numbers and all that but hows the general idea, i mean shuriken toss seams so bland and lame so far.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
11845
Stalik -- are you saying you'd like to see this replace Shuriken Toss, with no other changes made in the tier? If this talent existed, would you choose it over Anticipation and Versatility?

I don't disagree that Shuriken Toss is bland (revolutionary though it may be since it generates CPs, it's still basically a pumped-up Throw), but what makes it "lame" enough that you don't want to use it?
Edited by Rfeann on 12/5/2012 11:31 AM PST
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90 Human Rogue
10070
There are ideas for talent tier changes all over this forum. Might be worth making a sticky to start collection them all in one place. Might also be worth giving an overview of the current talents before soliciting new ideas.

I feel like there are a lot of problems with the rogue tree. Seems like they got more wrong than right and it needs a complete overhaul.
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100 Human Rogue
11320
12/05/2012 11:21 AMPosted by Stalik
Shuriken Grapple- 25 yard range. 45 second cooldown. lasts 15 seconds.


I think a cooler idea for this would be a Scorpian-esq "GET OVER HERE" type move, but I'd probably put it in the movement tier and make prep baseline. As far as the last tier of talents PvE wise you are currently forced into anticipation (which is not an awful PvP talent either, I just see justification behind other choices in PvP). This leads me to believe this tier needs work. I'll give it somet hought.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
11845
I'm gonna copy this over from the other thread by Leftenantdan ( http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7320422132 ), because the idea fascinates me.

As the name suggests, should we have a tier dedicated to just energy regeneration?

For example:

Overkill

Generates energy 20% faster 20 seconds after leaving stealth

Sly Motives

Every attack that costs energy, you have a 30% chance to have your next 3 abilities cost 20 less energy.

Sadist

Your offensive finishing moves also generate 25 energy after use. Only available once every 10 seconds.


And Hail's response, which I agree with completely (and which really makes me wonder if this could be actually-doable):
Might be hard to make one not be the obvious choice, but you could have like one burst-on-demand (That's overkill), one continuous (Finisher one?) and one RNG-burst (Sly Motives). The total amount of energy back would have to be highest for RNG, middle for continuous, and lowest for burst on demand, simply to keep dps relatively even between the specs.


I'm unsure whether we really need an energy-increasing talent tier -- I worry as it is that within a couple of raid tiers we're gonna have energy shooting out our energy holes, particularly for Combat -- but the idea feels clean. And I like the fact that 1) it wouldn't add any new cooldowns and 2) it would be a proc whose effects we could "watch" occur, which is satisfying.

Effectively having a second Venemous Wounds for Mut (or a second Relentless Strikes for Combat) could be a bit odd, though. Would we want to sacrifice those baseline effects for our choice of energy enhancements?

And what tier would this replace?
Edited by Rfeann on 12/5/2012 11:52 AM PST
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Thanks for the post Rfeann, that thread gave me the idea to make a thread to gather all ideas and make new ones. Honestly I'm surprised you didn't beat me to it.

But yeah I'd be really excited to see an energy regen tier, and I think it would take a while for theorycrafters to decide on a talent that's best for each spec, thus while they would be dps increasing I think people would generally pick what best suits their playstyle. Might be different in PvP, I could see burst energy being a lot more important, but then maybe not since energy over time could help make BoS more viable.

Edit: Also, Daxxarri says he's looking forward to the responses in this thread (apparently he read the thread before anyone posted on it). Let's not let him down! CREATIVITY GOGOGO!
Edited by Haileaus on 12/5/2012 11:55 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Rogue
0
Why even post suggestions? Especially if they are good.

The current developers will never take a player suggested talent and add it That is not going to happen.

And if by some MIRACLE they did, it would be so convoluted, twisted and nonsensical for our class that we would not use it unless they put it in a tier with talents like

Emote Ninja: Causes the Rogue to stop the pathetic DPS he is already outputting and emote
"I R Fail"

Or

Fetal Position of the Gladiators

Causes the Rogue to go prone in the Fetal position after being outdps'd by a Priest.
Going into the Fetal Position causes the Rogue to stay this way for the next 2 arena
matches allowing him time to recover from his emotional #@%@#!#@.
Edited by Silvaryus on 12/5/2012 11:55 AM PST
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Why even post suggestions? Especially if they are good.

Here...
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=mmorpg+feedback+form
Now click the first link and fill in the form.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
11845
The current developers will never take a player suggested talent and add it That is not going to happen.

I refuse to be so cynical and pessimistic about this game or its developers that I don't even feel it's worthwhile to discuss cool ideas with my fellow players.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
7280
Baseline step, replace with +70% sprint speed & no cd triggered when used in stealth (wed all take prep anyway)

Combine nighstalker with Shadow Focus, replace it with a talent offering immunity to cc in stealth and the ability to absorb up to 10% of hp in dmg before breaking stealth (basically lets us walk over RoF or DnD, into a fear etc..while stealthed. Once per 90s.

Something like a concussion grenade/bomb that aoe disorients/interupts would be nice to bring us in line with warrior/lock/pally/etc stuns. Maybe as a glyph on smokebomb to handle any players within 10yrds of the smoke edge when its dropped.
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
This is from that other thread, and is quoted from Poisonpill.

Shuriken Grapple- 25 yard range. 45 second cooldown. lasts 15 seconds.[...]


I hate it honestly. I know people HATE ST, but to me, I adore that talent. I mean, I'm constantly getting 32k crits on targets 10 yards +. It's low energy, helpful for building combos, applies poisons, and it has no cd. Why change it? I've even gotten a few paralytic poison stun procs from it and it's saved my sorry self.

I see where you're getting at trying to improve mobility, but it's the wrong teir. As far as the stun goes, the game needs LESS CC, not more.

Maybe making prep baseline and adding a grapple in the "mobility tier" would be acceptable, but, even at 45 seconds, too long. All they honestly have to do is make Shadowstep a 20 second cd, able to shs while snared, and give it too charges with a 20 seconds cd for each. That's it.
Edited by Haileaus on 12/5/2012 12:09 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Rogue
0
12/05/2012 11:58 AMPosted by Rfeann
The current developers will never take a player suggested talent and add it That is not going to happen.

I refuse to be so cynical and pessimistic about this game or its developers that I don't even feel it's worthwhile to discuss cool ideas with my fellow players.


Fyi The devs will never and have never created a talent from the input of players. This has been on going since vanilla beta when everything was fubar'd and instead of making changes they merely fixed bugs which resulted in a "Yes Rogues can't kill anything but that's how we want it" response from that development team.

Now you have GC. If you think he has any interest in taking any of your ideas and doing anything at all with them.... Just read his twitter feed and responses.

End discussion.

You are all fantasizing beyond the normal rational limits of reality,.
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
I like the idea of having a talent added to our stealth tier that would make us immune to AoE damage and other such things that break stealth. Could also have it not do damage but would seem a bit underpowered. Then again I'd rather see a change to stealth so we didn't need a talent to not have AoEs break stealth. Having stealth give us a shield for a percentage of our health would be REALLY SUPER COOL though, since it would make vanish even more of a defensive CD in PvP and make it a defensive or uptime CD in PvE, rather than a slight offensive one or a repair bill saving one.

Not sure about combining Nightstalker with Shadow Focus, but doesn't seem *too* OP. Might need to tune the DPS part down a bit, especially because there would be more pressure for PvE rogues to take it.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
11845
Silvaryus, are you seriously posting to this forum to tell people that they should stop posting to this forum?

Let's move on and continue with the actual discussion, please. Frankly, it doesn't matter whether Blizzard devs choose to do anything at all with this feedback; it should be enough that we have well-thought-out, reasoned discussions among ourselves as to what we feel is working right and what we feel could work better. Hail's encouraging us to have that discussion as a group in this thread, rather than creating dozens of individual threads with one idea at a time. It's a great thought.
Edited by Rfeann on 12/5/2012 12:25 PM PST
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Fyi The devs will never and have never created a talent from the input of players.

Disagree. While it is true most ideas for new abilities are completely ignored, a lot of imput from players is seen in game. Granted a lot of it isn't in the way players asked for it, but still. Let's look at our current talent trees:

CR/CoS no longer tied together.
Prep/SS available to all specs (though not at the same time).
BoS energy cost reduced.
Versatility making target swaps not nearly as much of an issue (not having CP on player but close).

Either way this is a thread about ideas, so if you don't have anything constructive to say please leave. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to read http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2826022811?page=1
Edited by Haileaus on 12/5/2012 12:26 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Rogue
0
Silvaryus, are you seriously posting to this forum to tell people that they should stop posting to this forum?

Let's move on and continue with the actual discussion, please. Frankly, it doesn't matter whether Blizzard devs choose to do anything at all with this feedback; it should be enough that we have well-thought-out, reasoned discussions among ourselves as to what we feel is working right and what we feel could work better. Hail's encouraging us to have that discussion as a group in this thread, rather than creating dozens of individual threads with one idea at a time. It's a great thought.


I am just saying that the Dev's hate us. I am also vehemently opposed to any good idea that I did not think of first.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
11845
I am just saying that the Dev's hate us. I am also vehemently opposed to any good idea that I did not think of first.

I disagree with your first point. I agree wholeheartedly with the second. (But with "I" meaning "I," of course. :) )

Switching gears to the Shuriken Toss convo, I wanna launch off from post #12 above (from Posionpill, via Hail):

12/05/2012 12:06 PMPosted by Haileaus
I know people HATE ST, but to me, I adore that talent. I mean, I'm constantly getting 32k crits on targets 10 yards +. It's low energy, helpful for building combos, applies poisons, and it has no cd. Why change it? I've even gotten a few paralytic poison stun procs from it and it's saved my sorry self.


It's cool hearing thoughts about this from a PvP perspective, because I'm so heavily PvE-focused. And from my standpoint as a casual-wannabe-raider, here's my thing with ST: It really bugs me that I have to choose between it and Anticipation. I realize that me saying that implies that the developers achieved their goal by making it a "hard choice" between the two, but in actuality it's not the kind of "hard choice" that I feel they had in mind. I wish I didn't have to choose between them because I feel like I'm choosing between a talent I "must" take for DPS purposes (Anticipation) and one that I wish I could take, because it'd be so much more fun to have for raid fights, but that I'd feel guilty taking because it'd be hurting my raid group as a whole (ST).

I love having ST on Feng, because I can feel like I'm still doing something useful during Epicenter, or when I get Wildfire Spark on me and I have to run away. I love having it in LFR on Spirit Kings or Ta'yak so I can quickly switch to mind-controlled people who are at range and help get them back in action. I love having it on Elegon because I can start flinging metal at the pylons as I'm racing toward them with my Shadowstep on cooldown. It's a talent that keeps me feeling engaged in fights and -- though I realize it's weird to use this word given the other talents in the tier -- makes me feel more versatile as a DPSer.

But outside of LFR? In a "real" raid? I feel like I can't let myself use it, because as fun as it is and as useful as I *feel* when I have it, I also know it costs me DPS compared to Anticipation.

Maybe if extra-CP proccing were removed from the equation, it'd be a more intriguing debate to have from fight to fight. But as many feared it would, the fight designs so far in Mists don't appear to have made ST a viable option over Anticipation, and that makes me sad.
Edited by Rfeann on 12/5/2012 1:05 PM PST
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
12/05/2012 11:34 AMPosted by Deft
Might be worth making a sticky to start collection them all in one place.

For the record I don't think this is a good idea since nobody ever reads the stickies. At least, it doesn't seem like it. :(

But seriously, regarding Rfeann's post:
I think that's interesting, because honestly I've never taken ST or Versatility. I think Anticipation is really nice and optimizing it is really interesting. I do think if I couldn't take Anticipation I would choose ST since having that ability added to my toolkit would be pretty cool and I don't think switching targets more via Redirect w/o a CD would be particularly interesting. In fact, Versatility seems pretty boring.

I think I'd prefer the final tier having a ST that does more damage or is otherwise more viable, and then having Versatility...changed. Maybe put in another ability, maybe make it have the CP stack on the rogue (so it seems like more of a change to the rogue itself rather than a change to some CD we've had since 4.0). Not sure what I'd replace Versatility with if I wasn't gonna make it put CP on the rogue, and having that mechanic might take a lot of dev time. Would also not make it any different for anything other than aesthetics.

On another note, from what I've seen reading forum posts a lot of rogues are displeased with our talents in general. I often see citations of other trees they deem more interesting. Now while I'm sure this happens for every class, let's assume more rogues are jealous of other classes' talents than other classes are jealous of rogue talents (would love to see the numbers on this). If this is the case, nerfing Anticipation to a level closer to the other talents might solve the problem of it being too good in PvE, but would give many rogues the impression that Bliz is nerfing the rogue class - a class which many consider neglected and weak, especially in the talent department. I'm thinking (and hoping) we'll see buffs to underused talents rather than nerfs to common ones.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
11845
12/05/2012 01:31 PMPosted by Haileaus
I'm thinking (and hoping) we'll see buffs to underused talents rather than nerfs to common ones.

Are underused talents underused because they're not powerful enough, period? Or more because they're not as powerful as the other options in that tier?

My perception, and I hope y'all will correct the crap out of me if I'm wrong, is that much of the negative feedback regarding *general* talent design for rogues (read: not pertaining to specific tiers) has been what some players perceive to be a lack of creativity or ingenuity -- talents that feel like interesting and exciting options. Not so much that they aren't powerful enough.
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