Prot Threat vs. Non Pally Threat

90 Blood Elf Paladin
9250
Okay, so I've been tanking since the beginning of Wrath with my pally and find consistently that I have issues grabbing threat off of other tanking classes. This applies specifically to DK's. My single target isn't nearly as bad as my aoe when it comes to them. Am I doing something wrong stats wise for threat?

It boggles my mind how I just can't hold threat consistently against other tanks. I changed my glyphs around and on single target fights I hold it a lot better now but still it's so hard to keep up threat wise with DK's and warriors. Any thoughts or opinions?
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100 Human Paladin
16125
Your problem is with the rate Vengeance stacks and decays. On AoE pulls try to make sure you each have at least 2-3 mobs hitting you, or lack of Vengeance will quickly result in you falling far behind in threat. Generally speaking, whichever tags multiple targets first is going to have the threat lead, and the other will fall behind if they aren't careful.

If this is happening to you on tank swaps, try using Hand of Salvation on your partner during the swap to give you time to get a good lead on the DPS. After the first swap it shouldn't be nearly as problematic as the two of you will be able to trade off Vengeance stacks/threat gain.
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90 Human Paladin
9675
pally threat is bad atm im in MV doin trash pulls i have better ilv then other tank 477 to 470 and ill start the pulls get through a full rotation he comes in with 1 bloodboil and takes all threat i see this as a real problem later when swapping between tanks due to stacks. in cata noone could pull off me w/o taunts and would usually come right back to me i have all my stats in the correct 7.5 hit/expertise mastery around 18% w/o might. my QUESTION is did blizz give more initial threat to other tanks due to the fact that pally tanks are mainly aoe threat. frankly im pissed about 1 BloodBoil and lose all threat after a full rotation. rotation is as follows
start with Hammer of light, concencrate, HotR, Holy Wrath, Judge, SotR, rinse and repeat. Been using that rotation -hammer of light since cata with no problems. even a warrior pulled off me with thunder clap wtf is that signed really pissed atm p.s. we start with the hall concencrate it concencrate the next room then concencrate the boss go home with loots! :)
Edited by Ucesph on 12/10/2012 8:17 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
9675
seems like alot of work for the pally to get threat compared to just swipe thunderclap bloodboil responding to post above^^
Edited by Ucesph on 12/10/2012 8:23 AM PST
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100 Human Paladin
16125
Sounds to me like your initial opening sequence is missing two heavy hitters. When starting an AoE pull I Judge one target (this also builds a HoPo and starts the CD running), Avenger's Shield (probably our heaviest initial hit), then Hammer of the Righteous as the first mob makes contact, Consecrate, then either Judge again and immediately SotR or Holy Wrath first. By this point I have some Vengeance built up and either drop a Light's Hammer or self-target and use Holy Prism as an AoE. Note that this is a *general* progression more than a hard sequence. If I *really* want to spike initial aggro I'll blow Wings first, being sure to use either the Light's Hammer or the Prism AoE before it expires. Otherwise I try to save my Wings until I'm at peak Vengeance to get the most out of them.

Some points to remember:

Avenger's Shield is a very heavy hitter. It should always be on cooldown or used immediately with Grand Crusader unless you are saving it for a ranged silence or need to dump HoPo before using the GC proc. Which brings me to my next point.

Shield of the Righteous is off the GCD. You should always use it along with another offensive ability if at all possible. SotR + AS is a particularly hard-hitting, high threat gen move. Also get used to targeting through an AoE pull and spreading your SotRs around, it really helps to keep threat if you have DPS not focusing your target.

Holy Wrath hits hard single target, but since it is a meteor effect, gets progressively weaker the more mobs are in the pull. Past three targets or so I only use it as a filler or to tag something that's only peripherally aggroed onto a party member, like an add that's aggroed onto a healer due to HoTs rolling. Always follow up a snagged mob like this with an actual hit.

Consecrate is almost the opposite conceptually from Holy Wrath, it's lousy at picking up unaggroed targets because it has to tick on them, but its damage is constant so it gets more powerful the more mobs are in the pull. Always try to keep it rolling, but not at the expense of Avenger's Shield or your Holy Power generators.

For most groups you can keep pounding a primary target and let your splash hold aggro, but if you *really* want to lock up a group, or if you have a strong DPSer who consistently gets on a different target, keep switching your target and using Judgement and SotR on fresh mobs. I imagine Double Jeopardy would be good for this but haven't tried it. I actually got used to doing this tanking on one of my warriors during Vanilla, since back then Thunderclap used a moderately high amount of Rage and our cleaves were not guaranteed to tag all the targets in an AoE pull - so you had to spread your hits around to control a group.

Barring an incredible gear gap, this technique should keep the group firmly locked onto you - but in a raid setting, be sure to leave your cotank a couple of mobs. Our threat/damage generation is heavily dependent on Vengeance stacks, and without any you'll have a hard time keeping aggro from a DPS who knows what they're doing. But with at least one, preferably 2+ mobs on a tank, it should be close to impossible for them to pry loose.

Edit: I should also address that it may *look* like another tank is just using Swipe/Thunderclap/Blood Boil and stuff sticks to them, but that's not the case. They're stacking abilities and changing targets like we should be, or DPS is peeling off of them like you've both described happening. Retribution's my primary spec, it's instantly apparent if a tank is being lazy and only hitting a couple AoEs instead of trying to actually build a threat lead, because I invariably end up tanking a mob during the pull.
Edited by Camaeris on 12/10/2012 10:48 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
9675
in original post forgot to put in the AS i use it and have it on CD or use with GC proc. and in raid the other tank and i tried this out to see if in case i was right about him pullin off me IE: in MV on trash quinlins i started the pull with AS HotR HW concencrate judge SotR AS on GC proc then Holy Prism. had all that down he came in 1 blood boil they were on him. i was left standing alone i out gear him 477 to 470. tried this in a heroic with another DK with a 458 ilvl he did same and pulled off me. i have RF on hit/expertise just shy of cap 7.2 17% masteryw/o might. so for me to blow AW to start a pull is a waste plus having to salv the other tank just to get vengence to stack. i'd say there is a problem with aggro for Pallies vs DKs and poss guardian druids and prot warriors monks have stupid vengence stacks to start with. The problem is how in cata noone could pull off me to mop its this easy to steal the aggro. plus i have to work 3x as hard to keep it vs other tank classes. either we need a bump to our vengence gains or damge increase to our abilities that may solve the problem. and the real concern is when having to taunt off ea other due to stacks killin the other tank and wiating for that stack debuff to expire
Edited by Ucesph on 12/12/2012 1:54 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
14035
I know I have a similar issue. Generally, I'll run into a group of mobs and hit my Avenger's Shield and HotR. Then my off tank (brewmaster monk) will run in and hit keg smash, and all the aggro goes to him. The mob(s) my avenger's shield hit may stay on me for a bit, but soon (and often times in pulls with more than 6 mobs), he'll end up with more vengeance and his keg smash will eventually pull off me. I tend to end up with 1 mob, maybe. Quite frustrating.
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100 Human Paladin
16125
Trash pulls in MV are a terrible place to compare AoE threat, particularly with a Blood DK. The DK's diseases are not reduced by the Frenzied Quilen's aura protecting the others, while all of your AoE moves are. I'd bet money that DK didn't pull off of you with a single Blood Boil, he rolled his diseases on all of them while you were using abilities and then stepped in.

There is no deficiency in Protection Paladin threat or damage.
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90 Draenei Paladin
12160
Not all tanks are created equal. This is something very important to remember. Paladins are in a neat position cause we are strong in a little bit of every roll a tank can fulfill, IMO. That being said, all things being equal, some tank classes are just superior in certain niches of tanking. DKs, Druids, Monks are all very powerful AoE tanks with a lot of very powerful upfront burst. Funny though... you look at those three... and though very survivable in their own right just don't have what a Pally or Warrior tank has in survivability. We're great boss tanks, the others are better add tanks. Versatility and differences make the game interesting.

If it's MASS AoE you're having trouble with, spec into Light's Hammer for those pulls. Holy Prism is great, very versatile for most fights, but it maxes out at tagging like 5 mobs. So if it's more than 5... you're missing AoE threat on them. Pick up Light's Hammer if you have to be an Add !@#$% and hold everything. Also... Cam like's to spread his SotR around, which I like too, but even better is spread your Avenger's Shield! It's a powerful hit and make sure it's not glyphed for single target when you're working on AoE threat. I like to hit one side of the mobs with it, then the other when it's up again while hammering in the middle.

Of course one thing I like to do when tanking with DKs or Monks or Bears is go ahead and give them the AoE glory. Most tanks in LFR are aggro ^-*!@s (or trying to be) and I'd rather be ready to pick up the mess when they fail or be happy to watch them do what their class shines at. My goal when tanking with someone else is to play to their strengths since I'm quite comfortable at doing any job. Kinda nice as a tank to be in that position. It makes the other tank feel less competitive and a lot of times they'll lay off being as aggressive if they see you're the kind of tank that will work with them rather than try to have the show all to yourself.

Paladin tanks are in a great place. Threat is meaningful, we have to work for it and it's engaging to do so. If you're struggling with it, try not to compare yourself to the other tank. The question really should be 'Am I holding threat off of the DPS and Healers?'. If you are doing that, you are doing fine. If you're having trouble with tank swaps, you can always Hand of Salvation the other tank (I typically use it on myself since I'm usually pulling a TON of threat at a switch) and save up big hits for the switch (like a SotR+AS, even HA or Wings if necessary). Worse gets to worse you can also throw a HoP on them too ;-)

Also, about the puppy pulls in MV, their threat is a little funny. They drop it fast it seems and are quite unruly without constant large AoE threat coming in to hold them. They are a horrible gauge for determining your AoE threat capabilities. I would look into getting a threat meter as well if it really bugs you.
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90 Tauren Paladin
16485
Our AoE threat is pretty !@#$ty, never had any issues with ST though. Tell your other tank to install omen.
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