Trinket Burst Damage Adjustments

90 Draenei Shaman
7340
No offense, but I don't think you're addressing the real issue here. I do a lot of theorycrafting and number crunching and am also a fairly highly experienced PvP player. You might try and say trinkets are the largest contributor to burst, its simply not true. The mechanics are the largest contributor, things like avatar and ascendance. Spells such as these are on the longer end of the cooldown spectrum and in the case of healing effectiveness, essentially double your healing output.

On-use trinkets undeniably give u a boost, but if you're going to apply this methodology it needs to be across all the contributing factors, not just PvP trinkets. Don't try and hide this issue with a simple fix that you believe can be remedied by nerfing "1 of 3+" contributing cooldowns that are all simultaneously linked into the same macro. I know ya'll aren't that naive.

Also, I really think you owe a trinket refund to the people who have bought the on-use / upgraded it. I'm sure many people bought it specifically because of the "controllable burst" it offers and since your generally nerfing that aspect of it, players can more easily see that it offers less stats overall than their on-proc counterparts.

Another thing. Because of this change, people playing human are going to have just as much if not more burst potential on openers. Because of the high proc rate on the PvP proc trinket equivalents (smart) people will end up double stacking them (malev with upgraded JP equivalent) and be essentially getting MORE stats that what would be available from Use + Proc (that is assuming you hold true to what you say in that you will be cutting the value and cd in half).

So, for those that do this, not only are their openers going to be even more bursty because they will be trading more stats for a little less control, but there will also be more rng involved, and I thought RNG was something you were trying to stray away from. I'm not entirely opposed to it, I just thought that was a stance you made.

Ultimately this is just going to make the PvP trinket fairly unattractive for anyone that can do basic math. It removes a lot of the creativity from having different options for PvP trinkets. I believe this kind of "homogenization" is one of the things that is making the game harder to balance and ultimately less interesting.

This game was great and I fell in love with it for a reason. I know much of the PvP community is very "group think" oriented and will just repeat what ever the "better players are saying," but I know ya'll are smarter than that. Ghostcrawler himself says that they don't always base things around "top parses or logs" because often times people can be very narrowminded. There are many things that I don't agree with but he has a very good point.

People need to have alternative opportunities to shine. Please stop moving in the direction of taking more opportunities away and address the core issue. I know ya'll are intelligent enough to realize this isn't a "real" fix.

/EndWallofText
Edited by Rests on 12/7/2012 9:06 AM PST
100 Orc Hunter
11290
frostbomb an choas bolt is the issue, and shockwave
yesterday vs spriest d lock shaman the spriest ran in circles doing a total of 560k damage at end of the game. an they won cause the dlock decided it was time to 1 shot people an pulled off 6m damage while being traped/hojed/cloned almost all game. choasbolted me for 195k i detterenced at low hp turned to my feral an droped him almost instantly while i was defensive
90 Worgen Hunter
6560
i still feel off healing is far too high. fix that as well and i have no problem with this.
Edited by Beastsquared on 12/7/2012 8:51 AM PST
85 Tauren Druid
8845
Inb4 pve raiding trinkets all over the arena and it will be fixed only in the next xpac (or not at all)

Don't get me wrong, burst across the board need to be reduced, this change however is lazy and stupid, burst damage win in this game. you're insane if you think PvP'er who PvE won't sacrifice some pvp power for 3k+ on demand strengh/agi/int than the pvp trinkets
90 Worgen Hunter
6560
also, it is their game, but they make it for us. if they wanted to make a game for just blizz employes no one would care what they did, but we all play it and we all pay our monthly fees so were entitled to an opinion. the whole "it's their game, they can do what they want mantality is in all honesty BS, if everyone was like you and just let them do what they do and didnt put in tickets, suggestions, and overall complaints the game would be !@#$. I feel the game is basically always in beta especially after a new xpac. so they need the feedback.

(i was replying the the person you replied to, just couldn't find the original comment)
100 Orc Hunter
11290
frostbomb an choas bolt is the issue, and shockwave
yesterday vs spriest d lock shaman the spriest ran in circles doing a total of 560k damage at end of the game. an they won cause the dlock decided it was time to 1 shot people an pulled off 6m damage while being traped/hojed/cloned almost all game. choasbolted me for 195k i detterenced at low hp turned to my feral an droped him almost instantly while i was defensive
95 Pandaren Shaman
2105
the overkill from warrior and mages is soo high this wont change much.

http://www.crossladder.com/arena/stats/

every single top comp has a mage, warrior or both... fix them, don't screw everyone else.
90 Undead Death Knight
12585
"Was this nerf good?" -Yes

"Do you think it will address ttk?" -Yes, it addresses it.

"Do you think it will raise ttk?" -Not from the classes that had extreme overkill potential. When a mage or warrior can blow you up well beyond your own hp pool, then all a nerf like this does, is allow it to be more frequent, while making it harder on other specs that do need the burst.
Edited by Demise on 12/7/2012 9:22 AM PST
100 Human Warlock
19835
I am so sick of everyone saying that destro locks are OP. We are NOT. Let me be clear, i PvE for the most part. I already took a nerf on behalf of PvP and i will not stand for more. If you are getting hit by a long cast spell with a huge build up you are the problem not my class. I understand that PvP is broken but all the calls to nerf the hell out of my class is uncalled for. I don't understand what is so hard about don't allow any PvE gear into a BG. Then the PvP gear for specific classes can have the stats adjusted to balance the damage. That way PvE can be left alone and PvP can be balanced at the stat level.
100 Human Warrior
17825
12/07/2012 08:03 AMPosted by Donatellô
try, remove frost bomb. avatar recklessness and deadly calm not usable together


Until they make it so that abilities have different effects in pve vs pvp, statements like this just show how little thought you put into solutions. They CAN'T just make a c hange like that for one facet of the game w/out drastic effects on other facets of the game.
90 Draenei Paladin
7295
12/07/2012 08:00 AMPosted by Hairyhoudini
Part of me pictures this clueless group of bald guys sitting at a dev meeting today scratching their heads wondering why this nerf didn't have the desired rejoicing of how brilliant the devs are.


Lol

This -is- a decent solution albeit probably not the best...why were 2 minute pvp trinkets okay through Cata but not okay in MoP?...did the strength ratio change?

This won't change PvP drastically; players will still be getting globaled.

Up sustained
Fix the god classes (mages, warriors, and warlocks)
Lower burst
Fix the god classes (mages, warriors, and warlocks)
Nerf CC

And bam, playable pvp. God I'm a genius.
Edited by Sariph on 12/7/2012 11:08 AM PST
90 Night Elf Druid
6525
You guys, you sit there and rage about pvp and how blizzard doesn't care. They have around 10million subscribers at any given time so they make 15million+ a month on subscriptions. They don't really care. It's all about the money. They do as little as possible as rarely as they can in order to make people think they care.
They noticed the trinkets were a big source of the problem, but they just made a dumb change that simply shifted the imbalances. The trinket is near-useless now for some classes and way OP for others. Now mages can on-use every other deep freeze with EVERY frozen orb. Priests can on-use with almost every silence/shadow fiend. God Comp just got a major !@#$ing buff. This also buffs rogues, BM hunters, frost DKs off the top of my head, because they have cooldowns and hard switches that can line up nicely with 1 minute intervals. Enhancement and Ele shamans just got %^-*ed because we have NOTHING that lines up with 1 minute.

The CORRECT solution to the burst problem is to REMOVE these trinkets. Make their on-use be something that does not amplify the player's damage more, like summoning a turret or and Iron Drake Whelpling or a heal or something that doesn't scale differently with different classes. Only then will trinkets be balanced for PvP.
100 Night Elf Druid
7690
How in the world are people getting that healers are op?

In the few years that I've played, this is the weakest that healers have ever been. They're so incredibly underpowered in pvp.
90 Human Priest
4135
I thought there was going to be a pvp power nerf on them as well?
This really doesn't make sense. Instead of addressing the strong classes and making adjustments you decide to nerf trinket burst when in actual fact this has a strong chance of skewing balance even more.

I can see possible ramifications caused by 1 min burst now with a 2 min CD insignia.

As mentioned this is a buff to mage and deep freeze shatters and other classes with 1-2min CDs.

I honestly don't think this will balance pvp for the better and rather certain classes are actually going to benefit greatly from this.

Doesn't this also make the proc trinkets possibly better considering the 30sec ICD and higher primary stat value? 3603 PROC vs 2553 on use? What is reasoning behind having a proc trinket with lower CD (effectively) providing higher primary stats than an on use with longer CD. I honestly want to know the thought process behind this.

This change I can already see benefiting the human racial that already stack double pvp power trinkets. This just compounds the problem with being able to almost always line up the proc + on use (since 1min CD now) with damage CDs which will be an overall increase in primary stat (2553 + 3603 vs 5105 now).

Dont tell me its hard to judge when the proc goes off either, there are a ton of addons out that track ICDs of such things. Its extremely easy to predict when the trinkets will proc.

Are you going to provide a refund for players who may have already purchased the on use trinket and upgraded? The proc trinket may indeed be better than the on use now for a variety of classes now.

This is just a sample of potential problems that will occur. I highly support the effort in reducing the burst damage in pvp but I really think class mechanics are the biggest factor in the problem with burst, these have to be addressed first imo before anything is done to gear.
88 Goblin Warlock
1410
so now human mage can deep with trinket up EVERY time when wearing both on use

sure it is a bit less deadly but MORE frequently, grat to another buff to frost mage
80 Troll Warrior
0
This argument made more sense before PVP trinkets became the go to for pvp but always misses the point.

Orc and Troll for example are equivalent to the on demand from a trinket just as the human racial gives an on demand trinket use. As far as I am aware if you are looking at it from a burst perspective the Orc racial is actually more powerful as most on use trinkets cannot be used at the same time but can be used with a racial.

You can argue that on demand racials are superior to static racials but that surely is a seperate discussion and human is not clearly superior except in a world where PVE trinkets are superior to PVP trinkets as humans would then be able to use 2 PVE trinkets.

The problem is that the Orc and Troll (slightly) racials do NOT scale with gear or time. So while they are good at first, in later seasons of an expansion are much, much worse. So Humans get two trinkets that will be better in the second season and far superior in the third season.

Also it's important to point out that Orc racial is not a raw stat, it's a base AP or SP which do not scale with the effects of MotW/Kings, only secondary modifiers such as TSA/Brilliance. Where as Humans get to double dip as their trinkets ARE raw Agil/Str/Int, therefore are affected by MotW/Kings and TSA/Brilliance.
100 Human Warrior
11065
2 minute burst changes to a 1 minute Tickle Trinket.
so one minute classes can trinket ever CD now. Sure its the same over all damage over time and sure the lower stats will help lower burst but this is the LAMEST change you can some up with. Should a Burst any thing be on a one Minute CD?
But more or less only reason this bugs me is The proc Trinket Does more Damage now :-0
I know how math works but Splitting Burst to into smaller pools doent fix the problems your looking to change. Why not a longer trinket with lower damage same CD.
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