Blizzard and Premades

90 Human Mage
4945
I’ll try to break it down as clearly as I can:

Any addon that enables a full, organized Battleground group to queue against a randomly assembled group is creating a scenario where that coordinated group has a huge advantage. That is not in the spirit of the experience we want to provide in the normal Battleground queue. Playing with friends is fun and important, but it shouldn't come at the expense of the spirit of the game nor the fun of others.

The normal Battleground queue is for players to jump in and play against other players in a similar situation. We realize that it's not a perfect system, and we're still looking at ways to improve normal Battleground queues further. Regardless, it's not meant for organized groups to "pug stomp" and get quick Honor. We have built in outlets for players that want to organize--if a competitive, social experience was really the goal, then there are clear ways to achieve that.

The ultimate effect that this kind of queuing has had is to drive players away from PvP. Perhaps it's been a long time since you've been in a random group, but a lot of players will see that they're up against a premade and simply quit. At best, they suffer through it. To an extent premade groups count on this. Heck, one of the popular addons announces opposing players that appear to have rage quit.

Addons aren’t really a viable solution for botting issues, but we do take those issues seriously and we'll continue our work on improvements to the Battleground system, including better ways to deal with botting and other exploitative gameplay.
Every issue has two sides to it and what really irritates me (and many others) is that Blizzard has glossed over the fact that a large number of players have turned to premades because they are tired of having bad teammates. When I say bad I am talking of course of bots & AFKer's, but I am also talking about players that ignore objectives to fight mindlessly in the middle of nowhere and/or players that have made no attempt whatsoever to learn how to play their class decently.

The author of the above quote is on record saying that players only run premades to "stomp pugs" and that the bot issue is completely separate and unrelated to premades. I find this assertion to be both insulting and extremely short-sighted, as it does not reflect reality. Moreover the author tells players like me to participate in RBGs if I want organized, competitive play. I like to sign on & PvP within minutes, not spend considerable time looking for an RBG.

What is my recommendation? First of all don't try to tell me & others what our motivations are, because if you are wrong (and the author of the above quote is wrong about my motivations) then you are insulting part of your player base. Furthermore don't sit there & tell me that the bot issue is something you "take seriously" but take no tangible action against botting. Either do something about it or say that you can't fix the issue, but stop with the empty promises. Moreover telling players to go do RBGs isn't the answer either... clean up BGs and make them enjoyable for everyone. If you want to eliminate premades fine, but give players that actually try to win the match more incentives & conversely make ignoring objectives unrewarding.

I don't mind a fair fight and in fact the best BGs are the hard fought, competitive matches but it's pretty hard to have a competitive match when 80-90% of your teammates (bots, bads or likely a combination of both) are fighting mindlessly in the middle of nowhere. As it stands right now most of the close matches I've experienced are premade vs premade. As the author stated premades are not a "perfect solution" but unless Blizzard takes a holistic approach at improving BGs it is currently the best solution (sorry Blizzard).
Edited by Nystul on 12/6/2012 8:03 PM PST
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80 Dwarf Shaman
570
Don't worry, Dax speaks out both sides of his mouth.

Daxxarrii: In short, the experience on a PvP server is different. We want it to be different, and that includes everything from honorable conflict on the field of battle to horribly despicable ganking. It's all part of the fabric that makes a PvP server what it is.

Let the blood be spilled.


So playing on a PvP server and ganking, camping, grouping against lowbies, scrubs, undergeared players is ok...

But queueing for PvP and doing the same is not acceptable...

lul
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90 Human Mage
4945
Or fighting in the middle of nowhere, making no effort at all to win & screwing over your teammates is acceptable but organized, coordinated play is severely frowned upon.
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86 Human Mage
0
Deleted. Moved to page 2.
Edited by Verandra on 12/7/2012 7:45 PM PST
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100 Human Priest
19095
And this is different from all the other threads how?

All the excuses in the world are never going to change that when you form a premade in an unrated battleground, you are giving yourself an advantage that the game does not intend you to have. It doesn't matter what you say your intent is. The effect is the same.

Want to pick who's allowed to play with you? Rateds and wargames. They're working on a way to admit larger premades into unrated battlegrounds, but they want to do it their way - by matching those large premades against each other. In the mean time? Rateds. And. Wargames.

Don't act like a greedy child. The options are there. You can play rateds, you can play wargames, or you can take your chances in normals.
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86 Human Mage
0
They're working on a way to admit larger premades into unrated battlegrounds, but they want to do it their way - by matching those large premades against each other. In the mean time? Rateds. And. Wargames.


But that isn't what the OP wants. He is under some kind of delusion that he should be rewarded more for his extra "effort" if he has to fight another premade.

Apparently being in a premade stops being fun when there is equal competition.
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90 Human Mage
4945
12/06/2012 08:42 PMPosted by Verandra
But that isn't what the OP wants. He is under some kind of delusion that he should be rewarded more for his extra "effort" if he has to fight another premade.
Why do you think RBGs net 400 conquest per win? Are they delusional as well? Did you think for one second before posting?

A strictly premade vs premade BG becomes in essence an RBG, so yes it should net a higher reward than randoms. Perhaps not 400 conquest, but certainly more than 100 (so maybe 200-250 per win).

12/06/2012 08:42 PMPosted by Verandra
Apparently being in a premade stops being fun when there is equal competition.
You clearly didn't read what I wrote... typical knee-jerk reaction that borders on trolling. Here is what I said:

I don't mind a fair fight and in fact the best BGs are the hard fought, competitive matches but it's pretty hard to have a competitive match when 80-90% of your teammates (bots, bads or likely a combination of both) are fighting mindlessly in the middle of nowhere. As it stands right now most of the close matches I've experienced are premade vs premade


All the excuses in the world are never going to change that when you form a premade in an unrated battleground, you are giving yourself an advantage that the game does not intend you to have. It doesn't matter what you say your intent is. The effect is the same.
There you go again... didn't mention bots or bads. I very clearly explained the situation & why many players have resorted to premades that have absolutely nothing at all to do with "stomping pugs" but as always you glossed over the other side of the issue. I am not the least bit surprised by this, just disappointed that the Blizzard employee that I quoted has the same myopic view.

The people crying like babies are the ones that are MAD they can't get 10 organized people to steamroll pugs and bots LOL. God you guys are so damn horrible. If you must have an organized group of 10 like Blizzard said, DO RATED =)

Rated or Wargames = no bots... What's your excuse? and don't say long queues.
Yet another poster that clearly didn't read what I said... just posted the same nonsense that pretty much amount to trolling. If you have something to say that's intelligent great, but please go troll somewhere else.
Edited by Nystul on 12/6/2012 9:06 PM PST
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86 Human Mage
0
I don't mind a fair fight and in fact the best BGs are the hard fought, competitive matches but it's pretty hard to have a competitive match when 80-90% of your teammates (bots, bads or likely a combination of both) are fighting mindlessly in the middle of nowhere. As it stands right now most of the close matches I've experienced are premade vs premade


Ummmm... If premade vs premade is what you are looking for go do rated battlegrounds. There are no bots/bads/etc there. Rated BG's = Competitive. Rated BG's = 400 conquest points

Can you go back and respond to my entire first post? Or was it written for nothing?
Edited by Verandra on 12/6/2012 9:25 PM PST
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100 Human Priest
19095

All the excuses in the world are never going to change that when you form a premade in an unrated battleground, you are giving yourself an advantage that the game does not intend you to have. It doesn't matter what you say your intent is. The effect is the same.
There you go again... didn't mention bots or bads. I very clearly explained the situation & why many players have resorted to premades that have absolutely nothing at all to do with "stomping pugs" but as always you glossed over the other side of the issue. I am not the least bit surprised by this, just disappointed that the Blizzard employee that I quoted has the same myopic view.
I haven't glossed over a thing. I do not care why you say most premade players players are circumventing the queue. It does not matter. Their reasons do not outweigh the negative effects that their actions have. What do you want me to say? "Yes, you poor thing, the teammates the game assigns you are just so far below your skill level, obviously you deserve far better." You think you deserve better? Rateds. There's your solution. The solution to 'bads' in 'your' battlegrounds. Rateds! You tell me I 'gloss over' your issues with the players who play unrated battlegrounds? You 'gloss over' the fact that there are other options to get the playstyle you say you want.

This 'everyone who disagrees with me is trolling' thing is just another sinking-ship rhetorical tactic, btw.
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90 Human Mage
4945
12/06/2012 09:35 PMPosted by Cylthia
This 'everyone who disagrees with me is trolling' thing is just another sinking-ship rhetorical tactic, btw.
I didn't say you were trolling.... yes I strongly disagree with you. However posts like Ningos that clearly illustrate that he didn't read anything I said & made unintelligent, inflammatory remarks is pretty much the textbook definition of trolling.

12/06/2012 09:14 PMPosted by Verandra
Ummmm... If premade vs premade is what you are looking for go do rated battlegrounds
Another case of someone that didn't read what I said because I addressed this. RBGs are a pain.. takes too much time to find to find a group & a lot of trade RBG groups aren't very good. RBGs almost require that you consistently run with the same people if you want to be successful. I don't have the time to do that. I do arenas for most of my points (much easier to find a partner) and do BGs for fun. However my idea of fun (playing well & winning) is not consistent with many other BG player's idea of fun (mindlessly fighting in the middle of nowhere & ignoring objectives).
Edited by Nystul on 12/7/2012 3:52 AM PST
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100 Human Priest
19095
12/07/2012 03:45 AMPosted by Nystul
This 'everyone who disagrees with me is trolling' thing is just another sinking-ship rhetorical tactic, btw.
I didn't say you were trolling.... yes I strongly disagree with you. However posts like Ningos that clearly illustrate that he didn't read anything I said & made unintelligent, inflammatory remarks is pretty much the textbook definition of trolling.
No, they aren't. That's just the easy answer.

12/06/2012 09:14 PMPosted by Verandra
Ummmm... If premade vs premade is what you are looking for go do rated battlegrounds
Another case of someone that didn't read what I said because I addressed this. RBGs are a pain.. takes too much time to find to find a group & a lot of trade RBG groups aren't very good. RBGs almost require that you consistently run with the same people if you want to be successful. I don't have the time to do that. I do arenas for most of my points (much easier to find a partner) and do BGs for fun. However my idea of fun (playing well & winning) is not consistent with many other BG player's idea of fun (mindlessly fighting in the middle of nowhere & ignoring objectives).
So? Too bad.

If there were a premade-vs-premade queue for unrated battlegrounds, it would be 'a pain,' too. Unrated battleground groups are easy to get into because unrated battlegrounds are easy to play. If the queue was able to detect larger premades and match them against each other, those would be a lot more like rated battlegrounds. You're taking advantage of the party size limit to get a fun, easy, low-stress experience for yourself at the expense of someone else. And don't start again with the 'no, that's not what I said!' It is what you said. No matter how many times you tell me what your 'real' motivations are, it will never change the effect your actions have. Easy games for you, and a waste of time for someone else, not because your team is 'good' but because you're in a full group and the other team just met.

You essentially want an easy, fun experience with a coordinated team playing against an uncoordinated one. You say that isn't what you want, but that is really the only explanation. If you want to play with a coordiated team, do rateds. If you want to play against an uncoordinated one, do normals. You can not have the best of both worlds.
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Or fighting in the middle of nowhere, making no effort at all to win & screwing over your teammates is acceptable but organized, coordinated play is severely frowned upon.


i lol'd

this is so true in any game for that matter
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100 Human Warlock
7620
GUYS GUYS GUYS

It's not that PREMADES are bad, its PREMADES > 5 PEOPLE are bad.

5 is OK
6 is a NO NO
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96 Human Rogue
2880
This is just a compromise with everyone's interests in mind. 5 player premades still exist if you're looking to have a good time with some friends. Rateds and Arena still exist for competitive play. Solo queues aren't penalized as much for NOT running a premade. To say this change was directed an bots, bads, and apathetic players is silly. The obvious intent of this change was to allow players who solo queue to not face a completely demoralizing experience, regardless of their skill, automation, or desire to play the objectives.
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90 Night Elf Druid
7730
The fact of the matter is this. Both factions have "bads", bots, undergeared toons, and middle-fighters in them. Removing those players from one faction by inserting a premade upsets this balance.

Random battlegrounds are the lowest form of pvp. They are like the social slayer of halo. People just join up to have fun and do whatever. They don't do ranked/rateds because they are just there to relax and join up at their leisure.

Maybe players aren't capable enough to get into a team for some reason. Maybe they are undergeared, maybe they have a medical condition, maybe they are an injured war veteran trying to play the game. You can't tell if there is a legitimate reason as to why they are unable to make friends or get into a team.

But what I see you saying is these players should be forced to be camped/farmed every single game because you are "above" playing with them. You are in their playground, they aren't in yours. There is a place for large groups of premade players to go. Ranked battlegrounds.

As for getting an increased reward for having to fight other premades? No. The reward for you is not having to deal with these supposed "bads", mid-fighters, etc. There is nothing stopping you from solo queuing if fighting other skilled players is too much to handle.

I also recall you being a part of a 40 man premade against a bunch of PUG horde in AV/IoC? You know very well that is not fair. But apparently it is ok, because you're having your fun at the expense of everyone else. Right?

Blizzard made a stance on the issue and now you are complaining because it didn't mesh with what you thought. Sorry.


This is the most sensible comment I've yet to read on this topic. Good read Verandra. I agree completely with your assessment.
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100 Worgen Druid
15535
Im a little lost..
In a separate post i offered a suggestion to change the grind in battlegrounds away from the honor grind to a grind that would promote participation, coordination, and to in a way put more thought on going for objectives, pretty much eliminating the botter, afkers, honor soakers we currently are experiencing cause of the honor grind. But when you came and commented you said you couldnt disagree more and that it would just create mindless deathmatches which here you are saying is what we are already currently experiencing with people going off ignoring objectives and pvping in the middle of nowhere...

You even went as far as saying it would be insulting to remove the grind for gear for some other incentive... which really, is the honor grind that important to you? As i said before and will again, you can get a full set of honor gear in a single AV weekend and thats just running with 3 or 4 people.. honor gear is too easy to get to even call it a grind but it causes so many problems with bots and afkers.

Get rid of the honor grind and u get rid of the honor farmers/bots
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96 Human Rogue
2880
Im a little lost..
In a separate post i offered a suggestion to change the grind in battlegrounds away from the honor grind to a grind that would promote participation, coordination, and to in a way put more thought on going for objectives, pretty much eliminating the botter, afkers, honor soakers we currently are experiencing cause of the honor grind. But when you came and commented you said you couldnt disagree more and that it would just create mindless deathmatches which here you are saying is what we are already currently experiencing with people going off ignoring objectives and pvping in the middle of nowhere...

You even went as far as saying it would be insulting to remove the grind for gear for some other incentive... which really, is the honor grind that important to you? As i said before and will again, you can get a full set of honor gear in a single AV weekend and thats just running with 3 or 4 people.. honor gear is too easy to get to even call it a grind but it causes so many problems with bots and afkers.

Get rid of the honor grind and u get rid of the honor farmers/bots

This would work, there's no real doubt about it. However, that is not what World of Warcraft is about. Love it or hate it, it's how it's been for years and years. The entire game is about progression and interacting with the world to achieve said progression. Whether it be dungeons, dailies, quests, and even battlegrounds. Your solution is good, however it's not for this game.
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86 Human Mage
0
This is the most sensible comment I've yet to read on this topic. Good read Verandra. I agree completely with your assessment.


Sad thing is he refuses to address this post. He will continue calling everyone trolls however.
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