Blizzard and Premades

90 Undead Rogue
0
Don't worry, Dax speaks out both sides of his mouth.

Daxxarrii: In short, the experience on a PvP server is different. We want it to be different, and that includes everything from honorable conflict on the field of battle to horribly despicable ganking. It's all part of the fabric that makes a PvP server what it is.

Let the blood be spilled.


So playing on a PvP server and ganking, camping, grouping against lowbies, scrubs, undergeared players is ok...

But queueing for PvP and doing the same is not acceptable...

lul


You are not using a Cross Realm addon to assist you, you are using the World of which they created for you and the Mechanics in it!
Reply Quote
90 Undead Warlock
7580
The fact of the matter is this. Both factions have "bads", bots, undergeared toons, and middle-fighters in them. Removing those players from one faction by inserting a premade upsets this balance.

Random battlegrounds are the lowest form of pvp. They are like the social slayer of halo. People just join up to have fun and do whatever. They don't do ranked/rateds because they are just there to relax and join up at their leisure.

Maybe players aren't capable enough to get into a team for some reason. Maybe they are undergeared, maybe they have a medical condition, maybe they are an injured war veteran trying to play the game. You can't tell if there is a legitimate reason as to why they are unable to make friends or get into a team.

But what I see you saying is these players should be forced to be camped/farmed every single game because you are "above" playing with them. You are in their playground, they aren't in yours. There is a place for large groups of premade players to go. Ranked battlegrounds.

As for getting an increased reward for having to fight other premades? No. The reward for you is not having to deal with these supposed "bads", mid-fighters, etc. There is nothing stopping you from solo queuing if fighting other skilled players is too much to handle.

I also recall you being a part of a 40 man premade against a bunch of PUG horde in AV/IoC? You know very well that is not fair. But apparently it is ok, because you're having your fun at the expense of everyone else. Right?

Blizzard made a stance on the issue and now you are complaining because it didn't mesh with what you thought. Sorry.

This is the most sensible comment I've yet to read on this topic. Good read Verandra. I agree completely with your assessment.


I totally 100% disagree. If that were the case, and both sides were evenly plagued by bots/afkers/etc...then matches would be much more challenging and fun. In my solo que experience, our side has more bots/afks and we get steam rolled...or vice versa. There is nothing fun about steam rolling another team, or getting steam rolled. If they could implement premade vs premade (not RBGs, as those are for ranking, not just getting 10 or 15 people together quickly) I would be all for it. Until then, I will have fun just spending every night waiting for healers and tanks for an RBG group for hours, and maybe doing 5 bgs. This is what WoW has come down to. SMH
Reply Quote
100 Worgen Druid
15455
Jugaa from what i remember, i may be wrong, but long ago when they did allow bigger groups of premades. Pretty much it ended up that you would see them trying to"game" the system.. partially cause queue times sucked but also cause soon it was realized that if u went in with 3 4 or 5 less people your chances of not getting another premade increased..

They can go with allowing premades but im sure what you will end up seeing is groups of 10 or 15 people timing queing up for av like they do now instead of going a pure 40 group in hopes to still game the system and getting a less organized group. If they can figure a way around that, all good, im sure people would be happy

And Esclamayshun, that may be true but obviously as it can be seen, bg's needs to be rethought (leave arena and rated bgs how they are). Thats the only conclusion i really can come up with to put a stop to bots and the like and put a emphasis on people queing for bgs that wants to do bgs since anyone else(win or lose) wont get anything for just sitting around. In all it would also mean there shouldnt be a need for premades as much since everyone has a focus and cant just sit around and hope to get something out of it. Still can have them i guess... but the reasoning for it is alot less
Edited by Lankynibs on 12/7/2012 1:18 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
4945
No, they aren't. That's just the easy answer.
Whether you agree or disagree with me it is blatantly obvious that kid Ningos was trolling.

If there were a premade-vs-premade queue for unrated battlegrounds, it would be 'a pain,' too.
Not if there was a LFG feature like PvE randoms & yes I would insist on more conquest points per win, for the reasons I have expressed many times. If it were the same conquest as randoms I wouldn't do them... not for the reasons people falsely claim (afraid of competition, which is nonsense) but rather better competition should always yield higher rewards (just like RBGs and arenas).

This is the most sensible comment I've yet to read on this topic. Good read Verandra. I agree completely with your assessment.
Some of what she said made sense, some of it didn't. She seems to be in the same boat as Clythia in regards to glossing over the real issue, which is bots & players that ignore objectives (effectively as useless as bots). Where is the outrage about these players?

12/07/2012 07:36 AMPosted by Nutuprshutup
Normally, I appreciate your sense of humour and viewpoint, but I have to agree with Cylthia, I'm not sure why this warranted another thread. Really, if it continues, it will be you and Cylthia arguing back and forth about the same points you have made previously.
To be honest I wanted to post in the thread created by the Blizzard employee I quoted, but it was locked (hit 26 pages in like a day).

12/07/2012 11:37 AMPosted by Verandra
Sad thing is he refuses to address this post. He will continue calling everyone trolls however.
I addresses the parts of your post that clearly illustrated you barely read what I had to say. Pretty hypocritical of you to accuse me of doing the same thing. Like I said above some of what you said made sense, but you lost me when you pretty much disregarded 2/3 of my points (that is why I said you were borderline trolling).

12/07/2012 10:22 AMPosted by Lankynibs
Im a little lost..
You shouldn't be, I was very clear in my opinions. Bottom line is I believe your idea of removing the gear grind would make BGs even worse than they are now (remove the incentive to win for most, resulting in mindless death matches). Blizzard has screwed the pooch a few times but I think they get it on this subject.
Edited by Nystul on 12/7/2012 4:29 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Human Priest
18555
12/07/2012 04:29 PMPosted by Nystul
No, they aren't. That's just the easy answer.
Whether you agree or disagree with me it is blatantly obvious that kid Ningos was trolling.
I disagree. I think you're confusing trolling with disagreement; just because someone doesn't find your arguments compelling, it doesn't mean that they're 'trolling' you. Where did that post even come from, anyway? It isn't in this thread.

And this 'kid' nonsense, btw, is perhaps my least favorite thing about this community. Don't like someone? Call them a kid! It completely invalidates anything they say! Like "troll," it's often nothing but a lazy way to dismiss an argument you don't feel like engaging with, but still want to 'refute.'
If there were a premade-vs-premade queue for unrated battlegrounds, it would be 'a pain,' too.
Not if there was a LFG feature like PvE randoms & yes I would insist on more conquest points per win, for the reasons I have expressed many times. If it were the same conquest as randoms I wouldn't do them... not for the reasons people falsely claim (afraid of competition, which is nonsense) but rather better competition should always yield higher rewards (just like RBGs and arenas).
Well, maybe they would and maybe they wouldn't. I wouldn't be opposed, but I don't think it's necessary. But then, I don't think that people who cheat the queue to get uncompetitive games deserve any rewards at all for winning, because their games are so much easier than they otherwise would be. They're already getting more than they deserve for their uncompetitve games, why should they get even more than that for competitive ones?
Reply Quote
100 Worgen Druid
15455
As much as you believe removing the honor grind takes away incentive to win, i disagree.

I would agree if they didnt put something else in place of the honor grind. But. I said put in a grind based on actual participation to objectives, like winning as well as other things. It would lead to people still wanting to win as well as not sit around and go off to kill aimlessly in the middle of a field since that would pretty much earn them nothing if they did.

You want to keep achieving gear somehow in a grind based on actually participating, its fine with me.. just to grind it out for honor (which is in part the cause for bots and people who sit around doing nothing, the people who are already doing mindless death matches in the middle of nowhere, cause win or lose they get honor) to get the gear is a cause of too many problems currently in bg's. and honestly its too easy and short term.
Edited by Lankynibs on 12/7/2012 5:42 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
4945
I disagree. I think you're confusing trolling with disagreement; just because someone doesn't find your arguments compelling, it doesn't mean that they're 'trolling' you. Where did that post even come from, anyway? It isn't in this thread.
I think your opinions about me are clouding your judgement. You disagreed with me but I didn't say you were trolling because you weren't. I fully understand disagreement is not trolling, but making stupid remarks just to get a response is what he did & that is trolling.

12/07/2012 04:59 PMPosted by Cylthia
I don't think that people who cheat the queue to get uncompetitive games deserve any rewards at all for winning, because their games are so much easier than they otherwise would be.
As I have stated many times I have faced horde premades much more often than pugs. The premade vs the hapless pug is in my experience the exception, not the norm.

12/07/2012 04:59 PMPosted by Cylthia
why should they get even more than that for competitive ones?
Now you are just grasping as straws. A lot of players that do premades also do RBGs. Should they not earn 400 conquest in RBGs now too? You are dangerously close to asking for a witch hunt.

12/07/2012 05:30 PMPosted by Lankynibs
As much as you believe removing the honor grind takes away incentive to win, i disagree.
We both want BGs to be better, we just disagree on the method.
Reply Quote
100 Human Priest
18555
It's ironic that you're accusing me of letting 'my personal opinions of you cloud my judgement' when you're making such overwrought emotional arguments. "Witch hunt?" Really? Because I think that going out of your way to make a game easy should yield less rewards? And because you have convinced yourself that most of your games were against other premades, that means that pub stomps don't exist?

Whatever. I'll just leave this here:

I know for a fact, that more and more of our games were against other "coordinated" opposing players. Battles became longer, harder and a whole hell of a lot more fun! They were not the Farm fest you claim they were, they were true Player vs Player games. Not scripted, not forced on anyone, not the repetitive grind of the normal wow game.


Perhaps this seemed to be your personal experience, but I assure you that this was far from generally the case. Regardless, what of the games that you played that weren't against other pre-mades? Just hapless casualties to your fun, I suppose?

Based on your enthusiasm for "true Player vs Player" combat, I'm sure that you'll find War Games and Rated Battlegrounds quite compelling.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
11690
12/06/2012 08:42 PMPosted by Verandra
Apparently being in a premade stops being fun when there is equal competition.


I think this pretty much sums up the situation.
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
4945
"Witch hunt?" Really? Because I think that going out of your way to make a game easy should yield less rewards?
Now come on now you are completely off the mark. I offered the possibility of a LFG style BG that was similar to PvE randoms and your reply was:

12/07/2012 04:59 PMPosted by Cylthia
They're already getting more than they deserve for their uncompetitve games, why should they get even more than that for competitive ones?


This after I have told you repeatedly that most of my matches (either solo queueing or in a premade, including 5 mans) were against horde premades. Do you not realize that the horde use OQueue a lot more than alliance? Do you not understand that means more horde premades? Your opinions border on the illogical. As you said before remove me from the equation... this is not about me or you. As for the quote in your last post I'm pretty sure that wasn't me, although that has been my experience (i.e. the best matches are usually premade vs premades).

12/07/2012 06:47 PMPosted by Prall
I think this pretty much sums up the situation.
That poster's remark was complete nonsense, because I told her prior to that the best BGs tend to be premade vs premade. It was a pretty ignorant remark actually given the fact that I said the exact opposite was true.

And because you have convinced yourself that most of your games were against other premades, that means that pub stomps don't exist?
Never said that & of course that happens. What also happens (much more frequently in my experience) is the majority of my team fighting in the middle of nowhere ignoring objectives (when I solo queue). Is that fair at all to me or the 1-2 other players trying to win? Don't give me the "bots & bads are on both sides so they cancel each other out" BS either because that is very rarely the case.
Edited by Nystul on 12/7/2012 7:29 PM PST
Reply Quote
86 Human Mage
0
The fact of the matter is this. Both factions have "bads", bots, undergeared toons, and middle-fighters in them. Removing those players from one faction by inserting a premade upsets this balance.

Random battlegrounds are the lowest form of pvp. They are like the social slayer of halo. People just join up to have fun and do whatever. They don't do ranked/rateds because they are just there to relax and join up at their leisure.

Maybe players aren't capable enough to get into a team for some reason. Maybe they are undergeared, maybe they have a medical condition, maybe they are an injured war veteran trying to play the game. You can't tell if there is a legitimate reason as to why they are unable to make friends or get into a team.

But what I see you saying is these players should be forced to be camped/farmed every single game because you are "above" playing with them. You are in their playground, they aren't in yours. There is a place for large groups of premade players to go. Ranked battlegrounds.

Do RBG's take longer to get together? Yep. There is a trade off here. Highly competitive matches take time to put together. Solo queuing into random battlegrounds is almost instant but you don't get an amazing team to play with every game.

As for getting an increased reward for having to fight other premades? No. The reward for you is not having to deal with these supposed "bads", mid-fighters, etc. There is nothing stopping you from solo queuing if fighting other skilled players is too much to handle. RBG's give 400 Conquest Points, there is your extra reward.

I also recall you being a part of a 40 man premade against a bunch of PUG horde in AV/IoC? You know very well that is not fair. But apparently it is ok, because you're having your fun at the expense of everyone else. Right?

Blizzard made a stance on the issue and now you are complaining because it didn't mesh with what you thought. Sorry.
Edited by Verandra on 12/7/2012 7:43 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
4945
12/07/2012 07:40 PMPosted by Verandra
You are in their playground, they aren't in yours.
What? As the midiots like to say my $15 is just as good as theirs.

12/07/2012 07:40 PMPosted by Verandra
The fact of the matter is this. Both factions have "bads", bots, undergeared toons, and middle-fighters in them. Removing those players from one faction by inserting a premade upsets this balance.
I don't have a problem with undergeared players. I don't have a problem with players trying to win. I DO have a problem with players ignoring objectives and mindlessly PvPing. They are no better than bots... in fact their behaviors are so similar that they are hard to tell apart. Also the comment that the bots & bads in each faction cancel either out sounds great, but it is rarely the case.

12/07/2012 07:40 PMPosted by Verandra
I also recall you being a part of a 40 man premade against a bunch of PUG horde in AV/IoC?
I did IoC premades a few times, a long time ago. It was kinda fun but the lag was ridiculous. FYI it was also done via a countdown in vent which is NOT against any rules.

12/07/2012 07:40 PMPosted by Verandra
Blizzard made a stance on the issue and now you are complaining because it didn't mesh with what you thought. Sorry.
I am complaining because Blizzard ignored the other issues that are the root causes (premades are just a reaction to constantly having bots & midiots on your team). In fact they claimed that the bot issue and the premade issue are completely unrelated, which is laughable.
Edited by Nystul on 12/7/2012 7:55 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
4945
The bot issue ebbs & flows over time. Apparently it is pretty bad right now & many players have cited it as a reason they do premades. I personally believe most of those bots are just players ignoring objectives, but I have also said they behave so similarly it's hard to tell the difference unless you have time to directly observe them (e.g. defending a node & watching them).

Anyways I found the comment by the Blizzard Community Manager to be rather myopic and not reflective of reality.

If something exists, despite your presence, they are by definition, unrelated. Your existence does not dictate theirs, nor the opposite.
Not true at all. Back to my analogy of criminals (bots & midiots), the uncaring cops (Blizzard) and the citizens that take matters into their own hands (premades). The crimes existed, got to a point where the citizens had enough & felt that the cops didn't care about what was going on so the citizens took matters into their own hands (vigilante justice). A few innocent bystanders (solo queuers trying to win but getting stomped by premades) got hurt so the cops arrest the vigilantes (but still let the criminals go unchecked).
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
11690
The 800 pound gorrilla in the room is still this: "If premade vs premade is the best pvp, why not do rated battlegrounds?"

There have been several different answers to that, but none are believable to me. It's like the older arguement that low level twinks enjoy fighting other low level twinks, it's true on some level, but once they got placed in separate battlegrounds away from the normal pug population their popularity suddenly disapeared. It turns out what people really enjoyed was winning easily and feeling powerful.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Priest
6155
Historically, they are completely unrelated. You have just latched onto them as a more convenient, respectable reason than existed before.Bots existed before premades.They exist during premades.I can't prove it, but bots will likely exist post-premades.If something exists, despite your presence, they are by definition, unrelated. Your existence does not dictate theirs, nor the opposite.


This just isn't true. Premades have been around since BG's were first implemented. I've been in lots of premade groups of different sizes throughout every expansion and I've never heard anyone say they wanted to group up to stomp pugs. However, I always hear people say they want to join up because they can't stand the random teamates they get in pug BG's.

I'm shocked at how strenuously people are objecting to premades. IDK how anyone can defend the state of random BG's atm. They're truely awful and for people to say that everyone should have to suffer them without premades makes no sense. Premades are available to everyone. More now than ever. Oqueue provides players an opportunity to join premade groups with virtually no barrier to entry, unlike rated BG's. The mod is free, requires virtually no setup and plenty of players posted their Battletags to help new users find the mesh. Most groups don't have resilience requirements or any restrictions at all from what I've seen.

I agree with Nystul that an intermidiate level of BG's would be supported and a welcome addition to the pvp game. Something with a low barrier to entry but that required a premade so that players could sort out who they wanted to play with. The distinction between this and RBG's would be that there's no player rating, so nothing is lost when you lose and no matching of similarly rated players is required. The games would be premade vs premade.

The problems with random BG's will never go away. A player driven solution to it should have been embraced by Blizz and the players. It's really disheartening to see Blizz and some players just want to drag everyone back down into the mess.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]