So, Vol'jin...

100 Human Paladin
14600
They forgot how to write their own characters.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
8135
Welp... if you ask me... which you weren't, Blizz isn't really caring for uh... story at this point. They're catering over for the PvErs and PvPers(Mainly the PvPers but that's my personal opinion not what really is happening.) So you can't really expect them to be building a solid story when a majority of the player base is just interested in the End Game content and Arenas/Wargames/Ranked etc.

I'm not saying they don't try but they don't put enough effort forward, now you'd might say;
'But Balrog-girl! You know nothing of the Gaming Industry, quit trying to pretend you do!'

Well yea... I have no idea how to run a business at all *serious* but I do know this is the MMO genre of the business, not a single player RPG. Yes, they are including 'stories' if you can call them of why we're in this location or why we're killing these creatures for their organ loot but that's just for the other player bases to know 'Where/What/Why/How', a means to make sure they don't wander off from the beaten trail.

In conclusion either;

12/09/2012 11:41 PMPosted by Liotuse
They forgot how to write their own characters.


Or

They're leaving it up to us, the RP player base to use our imagination/creativity to 'mold' the story to how we like it.

*Apologizes if this post makes you scratch your head... is suffering from a cold so my brain is just bluuuuh right now.*
Edited by Lëora on 12/10/2012 1:09 AM PST
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100 Night Elf Rogue
15595
Interestingly enough, I've never had a higher opinion of the story until now.

My thoughts on Cataclysm are fairly well-known, so I won't go into any great detail discussing them. But to summarize: amazing plot holes, ridiculously rushed story, a cast of characters that was somehow both minimal and exceedingly shallow.

MoP has been something of an opinion revolution for me. I find myself really enamored with the construction of these various zones and the societies, ecologies and economies that function within them. We're given adequate time with each character to understand their motivations which are (if not exactly complex) extremely believable. And the plot, so far, is given a very leisurely pace to explore itself (I'm someone who actually enjoys the Pandaren campaign dailies).

There are a few drawbacks, of course. Genderfail is as strong now as it was then. But honestly? I kind of think the Horde are getting screwed here, story-wise.

For one, an incredible amount of believability has been robbed from them. Nearly every member of the Horde is fanatically loyal to Garrosh, despite the Pandaren campaign being largely a failure from a Horde perspective and, canonically, his attempts to conquer the Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdor have not gone well.

Despite Garrosh's many atrocities, we're expected to believe that the brave, fearless heroes of the Horde are cowed into submission by him. At this point, basically every major lore figure on the Horde side has undergone some manner of character assassination (Baine is silent, Vol'jin only seems mildly concerned with what Garrosh is doing, Sylvanas is absent and so forth) to move the plot forward.

But my biggest grievance is that the Horde is suffering now what the Alliance suffered in Cataclysm: they are a foil for the other team.

What is the Alliance concerned with on Pandaria? First, with finding Anduin. Then, through him, with preserving Pandaria. Then, through various other quests, anything from securing the loyalty of the Pandaren people to discovering the Waters of Youth to just trying to fix a relationship between a father and daughter.

What is the Horde concerned with on Pandaria? Largely, whatever the Alliance is doing.

Because here's the authentic tragedy: despite the very large cast of characters in the Horde, we only ever need Nazgrim. The others echo his sentiments, which in turn echo Hellscream's, to such an extent that they are just copies of him. He's the only one that displays agency of his own.

I've sometimes thought about this and, if I had the option, I would rewrite the Horde opening like this.

Same introduction: Garrosh wants you to go to Pandaria and claim it. There's a brief moment where an advisor mentions that Durotar has become nearly completely unsustainable and the swine farms aren't producing any food. But ultimately, Garrosh sends you off with Nazgrim. Same deal, you get shot down, you fight the Alliance, you meet up with Honeydew Village.

At this point, Nazgrim looks at the lives he's lost and realizes he was sent into a trap. Questioning where his intelligence on this was, Kiryn (or Shokia) reveal that certain facts had been withheld from him. He's not here to claim Pandaria--not just to claim it, anyway. In fact, they have been dispatched with another, secret mission. They were not the first people to come here.

Weeks ago, a Sunwalker named Dezco located Pandaria first. He sent word back to his family in Thunder Bluff that he is never returning to the Horde. It was intercepted by Hellscream's agents, who learned of his desertion. Kiryn's goal is to find the deserters and punish them for their defiance.

Proceed as normal until we reach Krasarang Wilds and learn more about Dezco. We learn that the visions his wife had weren't of life, but of death. She saw an end to everything if they stayed with Hellscream's Horde, so he and his braves fled.

Fast forward to Kun-Lai Summit, where Nazgrim begins to question himself. The battle of Serpent's Heart revealed that his relentless aggression has consequences and he realizes that, in a very short time here, he has managed to decimate an entire population of people over what was basically a grudge match.

He meets with Dezco at the gates of the Vale, where he orders the Dawnchasers to lay down their arms and surrender. Dezco claims that all he did was justified and that all Nazgrim will have accomplished by stopping him is prolonging a war that will end in the utter annihilation of everyone. Nazgrim, reluctantly, agrees to let Dezco go, to the scolding of Kiryn.

We need a vehicle to explore the conflicting feelings that should be (but aren't) present in Garrosh's Horde. Nazgrim should have been our everyman, but he's just another copy of Hellscream.
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90 Orc Monk
11015
One of more bitter complaints with WoW is that there's not one mention of Garrosh's brutality towards his own, not one whisper of the tavern in Razor Hill being blown up because of veterans who questioned the severity of the Warchief's actions, or of the dozens of merchants, retired heroes and common folk who have been abducted and beaten to bloody pulps, or have simply disappeared, when the Kor'kron come calling.

Yeah, I get the Horde is under Martial Law, and Garrosh has gone to the step of making any questioning of his orders and act of treason against the Horde. But then, I read the books (however excremental some might be). I'd just like to see Blizzard throw in a mention here and there, just to ensure everyone is on the same page.

Yeah, you're gonna play the good little soldier when the other option is to have everyone else around you turn around and tear you to pieces, because if they don't, then they are the ones who are going to get it from the Kor'kron, and if not them, then their families and friends will suffer.

No man is an island, after all, and you'll find it hard to repair your equipment, purchase food or even find someone to talk to when you are given a pariah status coupled with the knowledge that merely associating with you is begging for a beating from the Warchief's men.

But no, it's "Go commit more attrocities!" lol'k.
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90 Orc Death Knight
13225
Yeah the whole thing doesn't really make sense.

What would be cool is if there was a story with different paths to follow like Fable or something.

For instance... none of my characters would actually have helped vol'jin or fought kor'kron; I just groan every time I'm forced to follow the same steps just to see how this plays out/get quest rewards.
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100 Orc Warrior
16535
12/10/2012 03:31 AMPosted by Basakan
But no, it's "Go commit more attrocities!" lol'k.


Be thankful your warchief grants you his attention!!
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100 Goblin Warlock
8310
Idk, I suppose I'm not as upset about the way the story is handled mainly because I don't think it's Blizz's main focus. If this was a campaign setting for a pathfinder or such, ya, I'd expect more. But it's an MMO, which is a hard format to write well with. On top of that, I doubt Blizz is as concerned with story writing as much as they make people believe.

What's always been my impression is that the mechanics and game elements were the top priority. Raids, BGs, and Questing to name a few. While RP is encouraged, it's an after thought, and handled mostly by those in the community that are concerned for it.

Another part of this is, I hear alot about other MMOs, but they all seem to operate the same way. RP is encouraged, but it's based on the player base almost exclusively.

I suppose what I'm saying is, while I do wish the story was better, I just don't see a stellar novel coming out of this, because MMOs are not great story devices, nor is it the most concerning part for developers.
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87 Blood Elf Paladin
3990
Isn't voodoo a dark magic? Technically?
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They're not being challenged because they exist, they're being challenged because they're antagonistic, back stabbing, liars who willingly serve the Horde.

It's not as though the Alliance doesn't have reason for wanting those blight slinging, mass murdering, scourge wannabes to perish.


Here's a question for you, though, in return.

Why aren't the Forsaken part of the Alliance instead? When they broke free, they were by every right the people of Lordaeron, a Kingdom of unliving Humans that stood with the Alliance from nearly the rise of its kingdom after the first empire separated. When Stormwind fell, Lordaeron took up arms and led the push against the orcs.

Yet now they are undead, 'abominations to the light', ironically just as Worgen are, really, but the Gilneans walled themselves off from the problems of the world instead of standing against the tides of war and blood with their fellow kingdoms. Strange that they were so quickly accepted into the fold.

The question of Forsaken loyalty doesn't boil down to "well they're Horde". Yes, they are right now, but it's always been the focal point of the 'alliance of convenience' the Horde's been called. If the Forsaken could have it any other way before all the aggression against them, they'd probably have rejoined the Alliance and never answered to an orc, just like the Blood elves if they hadn't almost been driven to extinction by a human Grand Marshal.
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100 Tauren Hunter
16140
Basically, as I understood it from way back in vanilla; the Forsaken believe that Lordaeron is rightfully theirs, even in undeath. Humans, however, don't see it that way and wished them removed, permanently. The Horde told the Forsaken "we will help you regain Lordaeron for access onto the Eastern Kingdoms."

Forsaken agreed and that is why they are with the Horde.
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100 Worgen Priest
15640
They're not being challenged because they exist, they're being challenged because they're antagonistic, back stabbing, liars who willingly serve the Horde.

It's not as though the Alliance doesn't have reason for wanting those blight slinging, mass murdering, scourge wannabes to perish.


Here's a question for you, though, in return.

Why aren't the Forsaken part of the Alliance instead?


Because she lied to Garithos and betrayed him, going so far as to kill him and his men once he had held his end of the bargain and helped to retake Capital City.

Murdering an Alliance commander and his soldiers, declaring a dreadlord as your second in command, as well as launching a crusade against any living humans, even when they're not affiliated with the Alliance is an easy way to be rejected.
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That's the basic jist of it, yes.

In other words, the Alliance is trying to steal the home of those who lived, defended, and died for their Kingdom. It's one of the major cases of the Alliance actually being outright evil, yet it's often overlooked because the Forsaken are viewed as such a decrepit, vile race (when they're really just people with a pretty bad skin disorder) what with the blight and being undead and all that jazz.

To me, it's pretty much the reason I outright love the Forsaken. They're being oppressed by those who they helped to drive the orcs back and restore their kingdom, but aren't going to lay down and die just because they are viewed as evil abominations. That Gilneas was even involved was pretty much Garrosh's call, and the Forsaken couldn't afford to lose Horde support at such a crucial time.

12/10/2012 12:00 PMPosted by Reticent
Because she lied to Garithos and betrayed him, going so far as to kill him and his men once he had held his end of the bargain and helped to retake Capital City.


Garithos was going to turn and betray her. In fact, he had no claim at all to Lordaeron - he was coming up from the south, and he almost doomed Sylvanas' living kin to extinction. The fact that she basically enslaved a dreadlord was more a flexing of her power than a "look at me I work with the Legion" move. She destroyed the rest of the dreadlords in Lordaeron, and forced Varimathras to serve her. In a position where you're basically the underdog, you don't toss away assets like they're just trash.

She never really launched a crusade to kill all living, though. That's often falsely attributed to her, even though Putress, a rogue factor in her ranks, was responsible - and she personally remedied that mistake. The only reason she ever really killed the living was to defend her and her own people, or because the Horde demanded she do so for their own power. Of course, when the people you're killing burn with a righteous hate for your very existence, it doesn't exactly take much justification to do so. From the minute she and the Forsaken rose to power, they were always at the center of fire for the human Kingdoms. None of them even bothered talking to her unless there was something in it for them, and then they would've been tossed away like tools. Sylvanas learned that quickly, and she adapted to that.
Edited by Alshiva on 12/10/2012 12:07 PM PST
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90 Draenei Priest
12615
12/09/2012 09:49 PMPosted by Halayn
Because Vol'jin has 99 problems but Sylvanas ain't one.


I love you.


<3

Everyone else makes fantastic points so instead of repeating, I will dutifully nod.
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100 Worgen Priest
15640
That's the basic jist of it, yes.

In other words, the Alliance is trying to steal the home of those who lived, defended, and died for their Kingdom. It's one of the major cases of the Alliance actually being outright evil, yet it's often overlooked because the Forsaken are viewed as such a decrepit, vile race (when they're really just people with a pretty bad skin disorder) what with the blight and being undead and all that jazz.

To me, it's pretty much the reason I outright love the Forsaken. They're being oppressed by those who they helped to drive the orcs back and restore their kingdom, but aren't going to lay down and die just because they are viewed as evil abominations. That Gilneas was even involved was pretty much Garrosh's call, and the Forsaken couldn't afford to lose Horde support at such a crucial time.

Because she lied to Garithos and betrayed him, going so far as to kill him and his men once he had held his end of the bargain and helped to retake Capital City.


Garithos was going to turn and betray her.


Citation needed. Because after he helped to retake Capital City like he said he would he was going to let her leave. He was being an egotistical !@#$%^ about the whole thing, but in the end he did everything he was supposed to do. Sylvanas is the one who never had any intention of leaving, and even said she was just using the humans as a means to an end.

She intended to betray Garithos and his soldiers from the very beginning, the same can not be said of Garithos.

In fact, he had no claim at all to Lordaeron - he was coming up from the south,


Garithos is from Lordaeron.

and he almost doomed Sylvanas' living kin to extinction.


Not at all relevant to the Forsaken at all, since Sylvanas was scourged long before Kaelthas -finally- came to the aide of the allies against the scourge. In other words, she couldn't have known, and given her apathy toward the elves in Lor'themars short story, she probably doesn't care.

The fact that she basically enslaved a dreadlord was more a flexing of her power than a "look at me I work with the Legion" move. She destroyed the rest of the dreadlords in Lordaeron, and forced Varimathras to serve her. In a position where you're basically the underdog, you don't toss away assets like they're just trash.


She didn't just enslave him, she trusted him with military operations. Players used to take quests from him, in fact. And that asset ended up usurping her and nearly summoned the legion again through her very city.

She never really launched a crusade to kill all living, though. That's often falsely attributed to her, even though Putress, a rogue factor in her ranks, was responsible - and she personally remedied that mistake.


Sylvanas is perfectly aware that the humans in Hillsbrad, and Silverpine are being murdered. She's utterly wiped the former out, and her forces are still attacking the latter.

The only reason she ever really killed the living was to defend her and her own people, or because the Horde demanded she do so for their own power.


The first is a lie, and the second is a lousy excuse.

Of course, when the people you're killing burn with a righteous hate for your very existence, it doesn't exactly take much justification to do so.


The people of SW and the refugees from Lordaeron don't hate the Forsaken because they're undead, they hate them because they steal land that isn't theirs, murder anyone who might be an inconvenience, and possess dangerous weapons of mass destruction which they gleefully unleash whenever they can.

From the minute she and the Forsaken rose to power, they were always at the center of fire for the human Kingdoms.


No she wasn't.

None of them even bothered talking to her unless there was something in it for them, and then they would've been tossed away like tools. Sylvanas learned that quickly, and she adapted to that.


Nobody bothered talking to her because she had a propensity for killing the living even before she joined the Horde. It's hard to be nice to something that murders your people.
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12/10/2012 12:45 PMPosted by Reticent
Garithos is from Lordaeron.


Could've sworn he was from Dalaran and screwed everyone over, checked and you're right. Still doesn't excuse him telling his own people "hey, screw you all, this is living people land only."

12/10/2012 12:45 PMPosted by Reticent
In other words, she couldn't have known, and given her apathy toward the elves in Lor'themars short story, she probably doesn't care.


That short story hardly counts. It was written by a third party for a contest Blizzard put out. Time and again in the game she states she entirely cares for her people.

She didn't just enslave him, she trusted him with military operations. Players used to take quests from him, in fact. And that asset ended up usurping her and nearly summoned the legion again through her very city.


To begin with, it was enslavement. She forced him to kill his own brother to prove his loyalty, even if it turned out to be faked. She grew too lax around him, but he had proven hugely useful for a long while, especially in the creation of the Deathstalkers.

Sylvanas is perfectly aware that the humans in Hillsbrad, and Silverpine are being murdered. She's utterly wiped the former out, and her forces are still attacking the latter.


They've been fighting the Forsaken for ages. Hillsbrad wasn't spared from the Scourge plague fully, but the humans who lived did at the same time turn around and attack the Forsaken without real warrant - it's been the Alliance stagefront for that war, and Arathi Basin is supposed to be the vital supply line to that portion of the battlefield. See the incursion of Dalaran into Silverpine Forest. The initial quests in classic were to drive them back.

12/10/2012 12:45 PMPosted by Reticent
The first is a lie, and the second is a lousy excuse.


Neither of those claims are really true. Sylvanas is out to preserve her people, but the only way to do that when a war is raging is to kill, and raise the dead. It'd be folly to assume that she'd sit idly by and not kill those killing her people.

The second is a fact of life. Garrosh tells you, conquer lands and gain a port. He's the lifeline you rely on for supplies. His word saves or dooms your race. You don't tell him screw off, you're out of luck. It'd be treason outright to defy the Horde's Warchief. You don't do that when there's more at stake than pride.

12/10/2012 12:45 PMPosted by Reticent
The people of SW and the refugees from Lordaeron don't hate the Forsaken because they're undead, they hate them because they steal land that isn't theirs, murder anyone who might be an inconvenience, and possess dangerous weapons of mass destruction which they gleefully unleash whenever they can.


This is largely their justification to destroy and take away Lordaeron from the Forsaken. They're dead citizens, the living citizens deserve their home back. The living citizens don't want to live with rotting people, so they have to be purged. The weapons came far later, and were a means to push back those so hellbent on killing off the entire population of a race. The Alliance aren't poor little people just looking for their home and what's right, even though they are cast in that light. They can be just as downright evil as the Horde has shown it can be.

12/10/2012 12:45 PMPosted by Reticent
No she wasn't.


The minute surviving Lordaeron nobles and peoples taking refuge in Stormwind saw that Lordaeron could be retaken, they called for the extermination of the Forsaken. It wasn't merely "oh look they're taking our lands, lets retaliate."

Nobody bothered talking to her because she had a propensity for killing the living even before she joined the Horde. It's hard to be nice to something that murders your people.


They were too busy swinging their swords at her and calling her a vile thing of evil, usually, with noses turned up in disgust. I haven't seen a case of her killing anyone without actual reason to do so, even if that reason sometimes is the Warchief told me to.
Edited by Alshiva on 12/10/2012 1:23 PM PST
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12/10/2012 09:30 AMPosted by Emlee
Isn't voodoo a dark magic? Technically?


Voodoo is a type of Divine Magic. It has some dark essences to it but it's not I guess what you would say an 'evil magic'. It's a mixture of shadow and nature, like a bit darker form of Shamanism.

What the Mogu magic is like is more akin to fleshshaping, playing God and such which everyone knows never ends well. And it didn't for the Mogu, they created the Saurok and they turned on them in time.
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87 Blood Elf Paladin
3990
This, is what keeps the War in Warcraft. :)
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100 Pandaren Priest
19425
political elementals
The deployment of Grover Norquist would be an unforgivable war crime to Thrall and anyone else.

Also: Garithos was a prick. He is not a good example, just like Zeliek is not a good example of a forsaken. It's entirely possible the Alliance overall would ignore his demise, his inability to shut up would put a strain on relations with elves and dwarves too.
Edited by Breathkeeper on 12/11/2012 12:43 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
11470
No offense but a better question would be why is the Forsaken part of the Horde? I mean really? The Forsaken don't care about the rest of the Horde and they have secret agendas at hand like truning everyone into undead.
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90 Troll Druid
8765
12/11/2012 01:28 PMPosted by Moonknyght
No offense but a better question would be why is the Forsaken part of the Horde? I mean really? The Forsaken don't care about the rest of the Horde and they have secret agendas at hand like truning everyone into undead.

Sometimes the enemy of your enemy is your friend.
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