Tirion, Leader of the Silver Hand?

1 Human Priest
0
Hello there everyone.

So this is a question that is currently ripping into my mind, mainly because there is a heavy debate on one realm, Moon Guard (but I am sure there are others as well) as to whether Tirion is the leader of the Silver Hand.

I myself am for Tirion being the leader, since this is what he said he was going to do at the end of the quest chain 'In Dreams' not to mention he clearly had the power to merge the Silver Hand and the Argent Dawn into the Argent Crusade, something that would be impossible without a form of leadership.

However there are more than a few players who are debating (violently so, resorting to insults at times) this point based on Chris Metzen's story 'Of Blood and Honor' where Tirion is clearly excommunicated from the Silver Hand and declared to be a traitor. This is of course what happened because he appeared as an exile in the vanilla version of the Eastern Plaguelands but does that prevent him from reemerging and taking a leadership position? I don't think so.

But honestly, this is really getting out of hand. The debates are getting worse and neither side is backing down, so I'd appreciate it if someone would post here to explain the situation (hopefully one of the C.Dev team) so that either way this matter can be put to rest.
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
17195
The Order of the Silver Hand was founded by Archbishop Alonsus Faol. He was the head of the Clerics of Northshire, but he was in Lordaeron during the First and Second Wars. When the survivors of Stormwind fled to Lordaeron, Anduin Lothar told Faol of the destruction of Northshire Abbey. Distressed by the losses his clerics had suffered, Faol came up with the idea of giving priestly training to knights (and vice-versa), so as to have holy men who could also defend themselves in battle.

In Stratholme, the first paladins - Uther, Tirion Fordring, Turalyon, Saidan Dathrohan and Gavinrad - were sworn into the Silver Hand. Others (like Alexandros Mograine) soon followed. After the Second War, the order expanded beyond Lordaeron, with new paladins being trained in Ironforge and Stormwind as well. It was in Stormwind's Cathedral of Light that Arthas Menethil joined the Silver Hand (in a ceremony performed by Faol, Uther, Tirion, Saidan and Gavinrad, and attended by the likes of Terenas and Calia Menethil, Daelin and Jaina Proudmoore, Varian Wrynn, Genn Greymane and Thoras Trollbane). The Silver Hand was very much an international organization.

When Arthas brought the Scourge to Lordaeron, the presence of the Silver Hand in that kingdom was decimated. Arthas personally killed Uther and Gavinrad, among many other paladins. The remnants of the Silver Hand in Lordaeron tried to fight back against the Scourge, but Saidan Dathrohan was possessed by the dreadlord Balnazzar and Alexandros was murdered by his son Renault (who was acting under the influence of that dreadlord). As Dathrohan, Balnazzar reorganized what remained of the Silver Hand in that region into the Scarlet Crusade.

After Taelan Fordring died trying to leave the Scarlet Crusade, the hermit Tirion Fordring (who had been excommunicated from the Silver Hand years earlier) came out of hiding and said, "The death of my son at the hands of these monsters will not pass without incident. Take solace in knowing that the Order is reborn. I now take my place as Highlord of the new Order of the Silver Hand."

The thing is... the portions of the Silver Hand that had been operating out of Ironforge and Stormwind were still alive and well. These are the orders to which the playable human and dwarven paladins in WoW belong to.

What Tirion did was create a new chapter of the Silver Hand in Lordaeron. It's not entirely clear who his followers were - perhaps redeemed Scarlet Crusaders, and/or members of the Argent Dawn, and/or Knights of the Silver Hand from other kingdoms who chose to heed his call - but it was that order that he merged with the Argent Dawn to create the Argent Crusade.

Tirion never had any jurisdiction over the Ironforge and Stormwind branches of the Silver Hand, which remain part of the Alliance to this day.
Reply Quote
1 Human Priest
0
*nods*

It's very confusing as it currently stands and it really does need clarification. I knew that there were southern branches of the Order, with the leader of those branches being Lord Grayson Shadowbreaker, but at the same time the events in the game imply that he leads them all. Even the main source of wow lore, wowpedia, says that Tirion leads the Silver Hand with Grayson being a secondary leader.

The main reason for this thread though, is to get some closure to the situation and a means to get rid of the toxicity that is the Moon Guard forums whenever Tirion and the Silver Hand are mentioned. As I said it's gotten to the point where anyone who disagrees with a certain (and very large) guild of RPers is more or less insulted and talked down to and really it's through no fault of our own but it needs to stop.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Hunter
5605
Essentially, Tirion re-founded the Knights of the Silver Hand after Arthas disbanded it (somehow) and later killed its leadership.

The Argent Dawn and the Scarlet Crusade abandoned the mentality of the KotSH, though the Argents were never really that alien.

A discrepancy arises when one does Stormwind and Ironforge's paladin class quests. Those quests imply that there was a Stormwind/Ironforge chapter of the Knights that was never disbanded. However, this group never did anything besides be class trainers.

So, Tirion re-founded the Lordaeron KotSH, did stuff off-screen, and then merged his organization with the Argent Dawn... but then there are these guys in Stormwind and Ironforge still being their own Silver Hand.
Edited by Pumlaxer on 12/8/2012 2:21 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Human Death Knight
10985
There's nothing to debate, really.

Some people can think, in-universe, that he had the right to reform the order.

But there is no in-universe evidence that his exile was ever rescinded, some people can still consider him an exile from both his Order and country with no right (legal or moral, or both) to make any claim over the Silver Hand.

That's that.
Reply Quote
1 Human Priest
0
12/08/2012 02:34 PMPosted by Kimchi
In-universe, nothing keeps someone from saying: "Tirion Fordring was a traitor and an exile and that doesn't change because he outlived better men than he."

Not saying people can't say that. In fact that's a point that I've been making on the MG forums in the threads I've posted in. No one can control what other people say or think. If someone wants to believe that Tirion is a traitor then so be it, no one can contest that.

But when you have people violently debating if it's 'lore' or not, that's when I have a problem. It ceases to become opinion at that point and it starts becoming forced as in 'you believe this or you're an idiot' forced.

That's what I'm here to get clarification for.
Reply Quote
100 Human Death Knight
10985
Not saying people can't say that. In fact that's a point that I've been making on the MG forums in the threads I've posted in. No one can control what other people say or think. If someone wants to believe that Tirion is a traitor then so be it, no one can contest that.

But when you have people violently debating if it's 'lore' or not, that's when I have a problem. It ceases to become opinion at that point and it starts becoming forced as in 'you believe this or you're an idiot' forced.

That's what I'm here to get clarification for.


If the clarification you're looking for is 'Tirion Fordring can tell Grayson Shadowbreaker what to do because he runs the whole show everywhere'

Then you're not going to get the confirmation you want because that's never happened.
Reply Quote
1 Human Priest
0
12/08/2012 02:46 PMPosted by Caliginous
Then you're not going to get the confirmation you want because that's never happened.

Except that you don't know that either.

For either side it's guessing... who knows what happened in the time between the events of 'In Dreams' and the 'Battle for Light's Hope'

Clearly Tirion did something because he was sporting the title 'Highlord of the Silver Hand' and was geared up in full T6 (although clearly he didn't have to farm BT and Hyjal for it... hax I say hax!). Ask yourself, if you were Tirion and you wanted to reform the Order of the Silver Hand what would you do? Would you sit in a shack on the river of the plaguelands until the undead showed up and attacked Light's Hope? No and I doubt he would either.

What would I do if I wanted to reform the Order of the Silver Hand if I had two years (possibly more depending on how many years have passed game wise) to do it? I'd travel to Stormwind and talk to the current leader of the southern Silver Hand paladins, Lord Grayson Shadowbreaker about the future of the Order. I'd convince him that a merger between the Silver Hand and the Argent Dawn would be in the best interest of all paladins and then I'd volunteer to take leadership of not only the Silver Hand, but this new order to bring Arthas to justice.

Again I point out that's why I am here, to get clarification on what happened. Doesn't matter to me what the answer is. If the answer is 'He's the leader of the northern branch only' I will accept that and move on, but I'm not going to back down on my pursuit of this since MG isn't going to stop arguing about it until there is an answer.
Edited by Vandriana on 12/8/2012 3:00 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Human Death Knight
10985

Except that you don't know that either.

The context I'm talking about is in game or in the game's expanded universe. And I do know it didn't happen in those.

For either side it's guessing... who knows what happened in the time between the events of 'In Dreams' and the 'Battle for Light's Hope'

Clearly Tirion did something because he was sporting the title 'Highlord of the Silver Hand' and was geared up in full T6 (although clearly he didn't have to farm BT and Hyjal for it... hax I say hax!). Ask yourself, if you were Tirion and you wanted to reform the Order of the Silver Hand what would you do? Would you sit in a shack on the river of the plaguelands until the undead showed up and attacked Light's Hope? No and I doubt he would either.

What would I do if I wanted to reform the Order of the Silver Hand if I had two years (possibly more depending on how many years have passed game wise) to do it? I'd travel to Stormwind and talk to the current leader of the southern Silver Hand paladins, Lord Grayson Shadowbreaker about the future of the Order. I'd convince him that a merger between the Silver Hand and the Argent Dawn would be in the best interest of all paladins and then I'd volunteer to take leadership of not only the Silver Hand, but this new order to bring Arthas to justice.

Again I point out that's why I am here, to get clarification on what happened. Doesn't matter to me what the answer is. If the answer is 'He's the leader of the northern branch only' I will accept that and move on, but I'm not going to back down on my pursuit of this since MG isn't going to stop arguing about it until there is an answer.


This is all your personal conjecture that has no more weight than anyone else's.

Conjecture doesn't clarify.

There isn't an answer.
Reply Quote
1 Human Priest
0
This is all your personal conjecture that has no more weight than anyone else's.

Conjecture doesn't clarify.

There isn't an answer.

Actually there is...

It's quite simple really. It doesn't need to be explained or elaborated on.

It's either:

A. Yes he's the leader of the entire Order of the Silver Hand

-or-

B. No he's only the leader of the northern branch of the Order of the Silver Hand.

Quite simple when you look at it, and hey if that answer is coming from someone who essentially -created- the story it can't be contested. Contesting it at that point would be no different than contesting George R R Martin about Ned Stark's death. He wrote the story, he has the final say in all things likewise with Blizzard entertainment and the story they've written here.
Edited by Vandriana on 12/8/2012 3:18 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Human Death Knight
10985

Actually there is...

It's quite simple really. It doesn't need to be explained or elaborated on.

It's either:

A. Yes he's the leader of the entire Order of the Silver Hand

-or-

B. No he's only the leader of the northern branch of the Order of the Silver Hand.

Quite simple when you look at it, and hey if that answer is coming from someone who essentially -created- the story it can't be contested. Contesting it at that point would be no different than contesting George R R Martin about Ned Stark's death. He wrote the story, he has the final say in all things likewise with Blizzard entertainment and the story they've written here.


Or... C. There hasn't been sufficient evidence given in the game or other sources to make either of those claims definitively.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Hunter
18025
It's kind of like "Is Tirion the rightful owner of Hearthglen". It used to be his, but was lawfully removed from him by the Alliance leaders. It was given to an Alliance lord, overrun by the scourge, taken by the Scarlet Crusade. Recently Tirion "cleaned out the remnants of the Scarlet Crusade" and now is lord again.

Also, on the main issue, it's worth mentioning that everyone who voted to kick Tirion out of the Silver Hand is dead, and half of them later turned evil (Arthas, Daelin Proudmoore).
Reply Quote
100 Human Death Knight
10985

Also, on the main issue, it's worth mentioning that everyone who voted to kick Tirion out of the Silver Hand is dead, and half of them later turned evil (Arthas, Daelin Proudmoore).


Actually, Daelin Proudmoore was confirmed by Word of God (Metzen) to be Lawful Good.
Reply Quote
90 Human Warrior
13525

Also, on the main issue, it's worth mentioning that everyone who voted to kick Tirion out of the Silver Hand is dead, and half of them later turned evil (Arthas, Daelin Proudmoore).


Actually, Daelin Proudmoore was confirmed by Word of God (Metzen) to be Lawful Good.


when was he confirmed to say this? If it was before Frozen Throne then no he wasn't. If he says he was just now then he's still wrong.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
11450
Lawful good people can make mistakes so eh.

Besides, they were escaped convicts. And I'm going to be that guy and say that he was right.

As for Tirion, he did absorb the Silver Hand, but I'm guessing that those were exiles or other Argents. Or maybe he converted the Alliance members.

Either way, I think there are still Silver Hand people in the Alliance. Why you don't see them? Because reasons.
Reply Quote
100 Human Death Knight
10985

when was he confirmed to say this? If it was before Frozen Throne then no he wasn't. If he says he was just now then he's still wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhzMHJE3UGY#t=12m06s
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Hunter
18025
Who says you can't be lawful good, travel to the far corners of the world, and carpet bomb native troll villages with your fleet of ships for no reason.
Reply Quote
90 Human Warrior
13525
Lawful good people can make mistakes so eh.

Besides, they were escaped convicts. And I'm going to be that guy and say that he was right.

As for Tirion, he did absorb the Silver Hand, but I'm guessing that those were exiles or other Argents. Or maybe he converted the Alliance members.

Either way, I think there are still Silver Hand people in the Alliance. Why you don't see them? Because reasons.


If we're talking about the whole Order..yeah

Daelin? Yeah please he 's.....lawful evil? or chaotic evil? /shrug

Who says you can't be lawful good, travel to the far corners of the world, and carpet bomb native troll villages with your fleet of ships for no reason.


*Puts on satire hat* Only good troll is dead troll! *Takes Satire hat off*
Reply Quote
100 Human Death Knight
10985

If we're talking about the whole Order..yeah

Daelin? Yeah please he 's.....lawful evil? or chaotic evil? /shrug


Your belief is directly in conflict with the word of the senior vice president of creative development.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]