Tirion, Leader of the Silver Hand?

90 Human Warrior
13525

If we're talking about the whole Order..yeah

Daelin? Yeah please he 's.....lawful evil? or chaotic evil? /shrug


Your belief is directly in conflict with the word of the senior vice president of creative development.


Yeah how dare I oppose Metzen in things. HOW DARE I
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11450
12/08/2012 03:55 PMPosted by Caliginous
Your belief is directly in conflict with the word of the senior vice president of creative development.


Metzen is vice president?
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100 Human Death Knight
12505

Metzen is vice president?

Well, I'm pretty sure he's the head of creative development, but a vice president at blizzard.
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100 Human Paladin
19145
12/08/2012 03:23 PMPosted by Caliginous
B. No he's only the leader of the northern branch of the Order of the Silver Hand.


I personally think this is the answer. The playable human and dwarven paladins are said to be members of the Silver Hand (even in post-Cataclysm quests) and they are very much a part of the Alliance.

12/08/2012 03:23 PMPosted by Caliginous
C. There hasn't been sufficient evidence given in the game or other sources to make either of those claims definitively.


I think he's looking for an answer from Blizzard itself... but he's not liable to get one here. The only Blizzard employee who posted on matters of lore was Nyorloth, and he was laid off almost a year ago.

12/08/2012 03:46 PMPosted by Lorthuron
Daelin? Yeah please he 's.....lawful evil? or chaotic evil? /shrug


Admiral Proudmoore went after the orcs because they were convicted criminals who staged a violent jailbreak and stole Alliance ships. He found them building bases and raising an army in another land. He didn't know they were trying to change their ways; he thought they were gathering their strength and preparing for a repeat of the Second War. He took action to prevent that from coming to pass. His intentions were noble, but he ended up making things worse because he didn't have all the facts.

What resulted wasn't a battle of Good vs. Evil. It was more like Lawful Good coming into conflict with Chaotic Good due to a misunderstanding. That's what made it tragic.

12/08/2012 03:56 PMPosted by Noitora
Metzen is vice president?


Note that there's no "President of Story" at Blizzard; vice president is the highest rank one can hold there short of being president of the whole company. For example:

Michael Morhaime, CEO and President of Blizzard Entertainment
Frank Pearce, Executive Vice President of Product Development
Rob Pardo, Executive Vice President of Game Design
Chris Metzen, Senior Vice President of Story and Franchise Development
Edited by Egrem on 12/8/2012 4:13 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
7705
I would say that no, Tirion Fordring is not the leader of the Silver Hand. If you Roleplay an Alliance Paladin, you don't have to recognize him as such.

It's just that most people don't argue with someone who holds the Ashbringer.

And I think joining the Silver Hand and the Argent Dawn was a symbolic gesture. It was essentially, an open invitation to every Paladin left in the world who wanted to fight the Scourge, to come with him and do exactly that. He had no implicit rightto do this ; Lord Maxwell pledged the Argent Dawn voluntarily. People joined Tirion because they respected him, and believed in him as the Ashbringer, not because they were obligated to obey him.

But not every Paladin in the world joined the Argent Crusade as per his call. The Silver Hand under House Wrynn (Their original patron house was Menethil, but you know ... Arthas happened) remains autonomous; they serve the Alliance, they are not neutral, and Tirion is not their leader. They are not sworn to follow him, but many do respect him.

This facet is really all that remains of the true Silver Hand.

Arthas was allowed to disband them, but the Paladins ignored his right to do so. With the Alliance of Lordaeron defunct, Varian did not recognize the word of House Menethil, and supported the Silver Hand's continued existence in Stormwind. They weren't actually separate branches under separate nations. What happened was that the Silver Hand in Lordaeron was massacred several times, and the survivors either: Joined the Scarlet Crusade, Joined the Argent Dawn, or went south to Stormwind.
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100 Human Mage
18205
He found them building bases and raising an army in another land. He didn't know they were trying to change their ways


Even when his own daughter told him as much? The least he could have done was hear her out.
Edited by Gibbons on 12/8/2012 6:28 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
7705
12/08/2012 06:27 PMPosted by Gibbons
He found them building bases and raising an army in another land. He didn't know they were trying to change their ways


Even when his own daughter told him as much? The least he could have done was hear her out.


The sad thing is, now, Jaina wishes she heard him out.
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90 Human Mage
13505
12/08/2012 06:33 PMPosted by Aurric


Even when his own daughter told him as much? The least he could have done was hear her out.


The sad thing is, now, Jaina wishes she heard him out.


She made the right decision back then. Nobody could of predicted at that point in time it would get this bad.
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
11390
Hrm...

Well, given that the Silver Hand was disbanded, it's current incarnation today can easily be argued as as wholly dis-unified. While you may have a few "veterans" of the Silver Hand hanging around Stormwind, really, until Turalyon gets back, the ONLY paladin of note on Azeroth IS Tirion Fordring.

Ultimately, the Silver Hand is supposed to mean something. This was the single most Elite Martial Force ever forged on Azeroth, the most powerful fighters the Alliance ever put on the battlefield. Having it run by Grayson "Some Guy" Shadowbreaker when you have Tirion Fordring to call the shots just really rings hallow.
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100 Human Mage
18205
Well, given that the Silver Hand was disbanded, its current incarnation today can easily be argued as as wholly dis-unified.


Having it run by Grayson "Some Guy" Shadowbreaker when you have Tirion Fordring to call the shots just really rings hollow.


Heil Grammar!
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1 Human Priest
0
12/08/2012 07:51 PMPosted by Dryker
Well, given that the Silver Hand was disbanded

Eh, it wasn't disbanded, it was suspended. To quote Arthas himself:

Have I? Lord Uther! By my right of succession and the sovereignty of my crown, I hear by relieve you of your command and suspend your paladins from service!

Now a suspension then is just like any suspension now. Essentially you're ordered to stand down indefinitely until such time as the suspension is lifted with no authority and no benefits. Now one could say that Arthas never released them from the suspension, but in reality it's likely that the suspension was lifted at the same time that Uther managed to convince King Terenas to recall Arthas's expedition to Northrend.

Now players have come here and said that he (Tirion) doesn't have the authority but in the end clearly he does have the authority or it wouldn't have happened. It really is common sense when you think about it. In order for him to merge the Silver Hand and the Argent Dawn into the Argent Crusade he would need to have authority over both organizations. People can say that he has no right until they are blue in the face but what it boils down to in the end is that he did have the right, it's just that some people disagree with that, and of course their welcome to, but that doesn't make it any less accurate.
Edited by Vandriana on 12/8/2012 9:05 PM PST
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1 Blood Elf Rogue
0
12/08/2012 09:04 PMPosted by Vandriana
Now players have come here and said that he (Tirion) doesn't have the authority but in the end clearly he does have the authority or it wouldn't have happened. It really is common sense when you think about it. In order for him to merge the Silver Hand and the Argent Dawn into the Argent Crusade he would need to have authority over both organizations.

Or he could just be some guy saying something.
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100 Human Mage
18205
Now players have come here and said that he (Tirion) doesn't have the authority but in the end clearly he does have the authority or it wouldn't have happened. It really is common sense when you think about it. In order for him to merge the Silver Hand and the Argent Dawn into the Argent Crusade he would need to have authority over both organizations.

Or he could just be some guy saying something.


In which case anybody could contradict him.

Nobody has done so.

Since nobody has challenged Tirion's authority over the Silver Hand and the Argent Dawn, there is no denying that he has such authority.
Edited by Gibbons on 12/8/2012 9:24 PM PST
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1 Human Priest
0
12/08/2012 09:23 PMPosted by Gibbons
Since nobody has challenged Tirion's authority over the Silver Hand and the Argent Dawn, there is no denying that he has such authority.

Not to mention there is no sign of a leader other than Tirion himself.

Lord Grayson Shadowbreaker was seen as the unofficial leader by us players simply because he was the senior trainer in the Cathedral, but there was no lore that painted or even hinted that Lord Grayson Shadowbreaker was the leader of the Silver Hand.

Now Tirion has reemerged with not only a purified Ashbringer but also the authority to merge the two factions together. That speaks volumes by itself as to whether he is the leader or not, as a simple squire or even a knight no matter how well respected, would not have the authority to perform any actions that affect the organizations as a whole. Only the leaders of those factions would have the ability to do so, which indicates that Tirion Fordring is the leader of the Silver Hand.
Edited by Vandriana on 12/8/2012 9:45 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
8315
The status of the Order of the Silver Hand as a whole has always been a very confusing topic for me since wrath of the Lich King.

On one hand, The Silver Hand has always been an Iconic Alliance organization, being basically the chamber militant of the Church of Light. Its been around since warcraft II and, for me at least, was the reason I rolled a paladin in Vanilla. When a Dwarf/Human player paladin first starts his character, there is a quest that clearly states that they are Knights of the Silver Hand, presumably meaning the Order is alive and active in the Alliance, similar to Blood Knights or Sunwalkers. Even the Human warrior quest states that the Order is taking an active hand in defending Northshire.

Then Wrath rolls along. Cap'n neutral declares hes the "Highlord" of the Silver Hand, and announces its merging with the Argent Dawn to form the Argent Crusade. So does that mean he is the head of the Lordaeron remnant of the Silver Hand? Or that he has jurisdiction over the ENTIRE silver hand? And if the latter is the case, where does that leave us Alliance-loyal Dwarf and Human paladins? Did we just lose our paladin order? Did it never exist? Are we all neutral now?

Equally bad, as other paladin orders have received at least some mention in recent expansions (Sunwalker Dezco, The Reliquary Blood Knights, and the Draenei Vindicators at Lion's Landing), The Silver Hand hasnt had any mention of being an active faction since vanilla. There is absolutely no iconography or symbols of the Silver Hand that exist in modern Azeroth (there are some in CoT strat). Hell, even the tabard with our heraldry and colours is available to every race and class via a ridiculously long questline. Our mount is in generic alliance colours with no iconography.

So where does that leave us Human and Dwarf paladins? We are holy knights with no order or Hierarchy. It seems that all lore about us has been swept under the carpet, with blizzard being hesitant and down right resistant to ever give us any mention or spotlight that gives any idea of what our order is. And when they do implement a Human or Dwarf paladin, they are often faceless quest fodder, an Argent scrub, some form of comic relief (i.e Maximilian of Northshire), or a generic "paladin" wearing the Alliance colours with no flavor text beyond "May the Light protect you this day".

Human and Dwarf paladins are now the "Homebrand" paladins (as compared to the Blood Knight or Sunwalker designer labels). The long and proud history our class had has been utterly decimated in the name of neutrality and Blizzard refuses to do anything with us or even just give an official word on where the order stands. Hell, even making a new Order for Human and Dwarf paladins would be cool.

Well, here is to some Human and Dwarf paladin lore development when Turalyon comes back.
Edited by Arieus on 12/8/2012 9:54 PM PST
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100 Night Elf Hunter
20715

Human and Dwarf paladins are now the "Homebrand" paladins (as compared to the Blood Knight or Sunwalker designer labels).


Arguably, the Blood Knights are the truest paladins as far as their link to "The Light" goes. They are vamping right off the neck of a potential source of all of it.

Also, by the end of WC3:TFT it seemed liked every single KotSH was super dead either due to Arthas or Balnazzar. Then in WOW a lot of NPCs are saying "I'm a member of KotSH, that's why I'm a generic vendor here in Ironforge!"
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1 Human Priest
0
Well thankfully Arieus that question is actually answered for you. If you go to the wowpedia page for the Knights of the Silver Hand there in the small section to the right under 'Status' it says that while many Knights of the Silver Hand joined the Argent Crusade, a few stayed with the Alliance. (and yes I know that wowpedia is not entirely accurate, however it is the most popular site for WoW lore (both in game and in the expanded universe) and the majority of people use it to reference their characters and stories)

I've always believed that the decision to join the Argent Crusade was an individual one, with each paladin given the choice between joining the Crusade and journeying to Northrend with Tirion or remaining with the Alliance/Horde and working with their respective factions. That doesn't make Tirion any less of a leader however, because when you think about it, given the history between the Horde and the Alliance, it was the best decision that Tirion could make to avoid massive amounts of in fighting within the Crusade as not all paladins would understand or respect Tirion's views on neutrality.

I do however agree with you that there needs to be more lore for the Knights of the Silver Hand in general and hopefully when Turalyon returns (if he returns) we'll get some true understanding of where the Order stands. Maybe when Turalyon returns Tirion will hand leadership over to him, as he is a far more well recognized paladin even though he himself is the Ashbringer, we will never know.
Edited by Vandriana on 12/8/2012 10:20 PM PST
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90 Human Mage
13505

Human and Dwarf paladins are now the "Homebrand" paladins (as compared to the Blood Knight or Sunwalker designer labels).


Arguably, the Blood Knights are the truest paladins as far as their link to "The Light" goes. They are vamping right off the neck of a potential source of all of it.

Also, by the end of WC3:TFT it seemed liked every single KotSH was super dead either due to Arthas or Balnazzar. Then in WOW a lot of NPCs are saying "I'm a member of KotSH, that's why I'm a generic vendor here in Ironforge!"


Blood Knights are far from Paladins at least from my knowledge. Until new Blood Knight lore comes out...can determine if they're actually paladins from their counterparts.
Edited by Valius on 12/8/2012 10:28 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
8315
I know its not official because I added that little blurbed to the Wowwiki page in 2009 when I was younger and a whole lot stupider (not sure if thats changed). And seeing as Wowpedia is based off of Wowwiki..... But then again it hasnt been edited out, so maybe its just dumb luck i was correct, or the editors are lazy.

Really, as it stands, the Silver Hand is looking dead, and even if it isnt, it's lore has been so mutilated and diluted its hard to feel connected to it anymore. Blizzard doesnt seem very interested in giving us a direct answer about it, which frankly just keeps it in this stage of "yes but no".

While I would love for the order to still be alive and active, I think it'd be better if the lore just moved on and we got a new order. Especially since I don't think blizzard will ever speak of it again, except maybe in passing when talking about the Argent Crusade.

Arguably, the Blood Knights are the truest paladins as far as their link to "The Light" goes. They are vamping right off the neck of a potential source of all of it.

Also, by the end of WC3:TFT it seemed liked every single KotSH was super dead either due to Arthas or Balnazzar. Then in WOW a lot of NPCs are saying "I'm a member of KotSH, that's why I'm a generic vendor here in Ironforge!"


While I dont think Blood Knights are any lesser than actual paladins (currently), I don't think their method of Light use is superior. But they are a lot more active and defined.

As it stands, I think any and all lore about the Silver Hand that isnt connected to the Argent Crusade has been intentionally made hazy and undefined.
Edited by Arieus on 12/8/2012 10:29 PM PST
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90 Human Mage
13505
Paladin Lore IMO crapped out ever since the discovery of the Light was on Faith based IMO. It's just something I really disagree with.
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