Tirion, Leader of the Silver Hand?

96 Undead Warlock
8200
Tirion's only virtue is that he is alive. One's exile does not legally end because the person that proclaimed the exile has died. It is not something you arbitrarily decide to "end" because you don't feel like being exiled any longer.


Well, the Kingdom of Lordaeron that exiled him... is no more but scattered Refugees. They don't even have a Government in Exile.
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90 Human Paladin
8315
Blizzard has an uncomfortable habit with turning Iconic Alliance heroes and organizations neutral so Horde players can interact with them, such as Tirion, Khadgar, the Kirin Tor up until recently, and perhaps the Silver Hand (if it is defunct since the Argent Crusade) to name a few. While it is understandable and the Horde has received some similar treatment, it still is an annoying obsession they have.

I have a suspicion that Blizzard will made Turalyon neutral along the similar veins as Tirion: he'll cut ties with the Alliance, profess complete neutrality for all time and completely act like he doesnt care about the Alliance or it's alues just so Horde Characters can interact with him. It'll suck big time. Worst part is he'll probably drag whatever few Alliance paladins are left with him.

If his neutrality was temporary, like that of Thrall's during Cataclysm, it'd be more stomachable.

At the end of the day, Human and Dwarf paladin lore has been diluted alot. Comparative to the other Paladin organizations out there, we have been left to rot. We have received little to no story development since Vanilla, and Blizzard is very hesitant to ever talk about what Order Human and Dwarf paladins belong to. I'd like to believe that the Silver Hand still exists and Human and Dwarf paladins are part of it, but I suspect that blizzard would prefer to sweep it under the rug and never talk about it, while all the time constantly adding new things for Sunwalkers and Blood Knights. Turalyon going neutral would be a huge blow to our already butchered and abandoned lore.

Personally, I feel that Blizzard should do something with Human and Dwarf paladins. Either have a few Knights of the Silver Hand around Stormwind/Ironforge (as in have a title/tag and wear the tabard) Or should just go ahead and make a new Order for us. Maybe the Order of Northshire

http://www.wowwiki.com/Clerics_of_Northshire
Edited by Arieus on 12/9/2012 11:54 PM PST
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96 Undead Warlock
8200
12/09/2012 11:50 PMPosted by Arieus
such as Tirion,


Eh, Tirion was never Alliance-iconic. His first major appearnce was how he was exiled from the Alliance, due to being friends with a orc, and the next time he was neutral. I agree many Alliance icons and themes have been turned neutral, I don't really count Tirion.
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90 Human Paladin
8315
12/10/2012 02:43 AMPosted by Ximothy
such as Tirion,


Eh, Tirion was never Alliance-iconic. His first major appearnce was how he was exiled from the Alliance, due to being friends with a orc, and the next time he was neutral. I agree many Alliance icons and themes have been turned neutral, I don't really count Tirion.


Point is that Turalyon is the last renowned Silver Hand paladin that (as far as we know) isnt dead, neutral, or evil. If I may be dramatic, he is the last hope for Human and Dwarf paladin story progression. When he returns to WoW, there is a chance that blizzard will actually give us some lime light for a while. He could be the catalyst that finally gets blizzard to reveal whether the Order of the Silver Hand still exists within the Alliance.

Or he could go down the Tirion road, making a neutral organization out of what is left of the Cannibalized Knights of the Silver Hand, butchering our lore even more.
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90 Human Mage
13505
I believe they learned their lesson about neutral organizations. At least I think they did.
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90 Human Paladin
8315
12/10/2012 12:46 PMPosted by Valius
I believe they learned their lesson about neutral organizations. At least I think they did.


Im fine with neutral factions, as long as those organizations don't steal Horde and Alliance iconic organizations. Things like the Silver Hand, Kirin Tor, Earthen ring, and so on should never be permanently neutral (its okay if they are temporarily neutral for a crisis)

For example, as soon as the Lich King was killed, the Argent Crusade should have split up, with the Silver Hand COMPLETELY returning to the Alliance and the Argent Dawn remaining the neutral faction for Plaugelands questing.
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90 Human Mage
13505
12/10/2012 01:16 PMPosted by Arieus
I believe they learned their lesson about neutral organizations. At least I think they did.


Im fine with neutral factions, as long as those organizations don't steal Horde and Alliance iconic organizations. Things like the Silver Hand, Kirin Tor, Earthen ring, and so on should never be permanently neutral (its okay if they are temporarily neutral for a crisis)

For example, as soon as the Lich King was killed, the Argent Crusade should have split up, with the Silver Hand COMPLETELY returning to the Alliance and the Argent Dawn remaining the neutral faction for Plaugelands questing.


True but honestly I think the only neutral faction should be is the Argent Dawn. They're the neutral faction, the *outcasts* figuratively do decisions no Alliance Member and Horde would face

(Work with Humans, Orcs, etc etc)
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90 Human Paladin
8315
Yeah, thats fine. The Argent Dawn was founded as neither a Horde or Alliance organization. It was completely neutral during it's founding and continuing to be so is fine.

I take issue when Alliance and Horde organizations turn neutral (permanently at least). It not only cheapens the faction, but it dilutes the Lore.
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90 Human Mage
13505
I take issue when Alliance and Horde organizations turn neutral (permanently at least). It not only cheapens the faction, but it dilutes the Lore.


And that's fair enough. To be honest, the Argent Crusade should go back to the Alliance and those that still feel not wanting to be with A or H can be Argent Dawn. They're those that give up their Alliance and Horde relationship and go Argent Dawn though... I suppose they can leave anytime they wish.
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90 Human Paladin
8315
Agreed. However, since the Argent Crusade is the union of Silver Hand and Argent Dawn, i'd imagine it'd cease to exist if the two sub-organizations went their separate ways.
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90 Night Elf Monk
10995
See, I built my paladin's RP entirely around her refusal to obey Tirion Fordring. He was exiled and deposed of his titles and land. Just because the kingdom goes to hell doesn't suddenly mean he can come back and take things.

I mean, sure, technically he -can-, since noone's exactly stopping him. But for someone who supposedly understands Blood and Honor, you'd think Tirion would realize that he did technically disobey the laws of the land, attack fellow knights and (in the book) even murdered a fellow paladin. Doesn't matter of Barthilas was a jerkface or not, Tirion still murdered him. Self defense doesn't work when you're interupting a public execution, as Will Turner learned.

I'm not sure WoW has any lore developed with how inhertiance works, but from what I've seen, they follow traditional European monarchy inheritance, in that titles and lands are usually passed to eligible heirs, typically the oldest male in direct descent. There are also usually provisions regarding exile and excommunication.

What Tirion did, essentially, was become a warlord. He came out of exile to save his boy and murder anyone who got in his way. His son taken from him, Tirion killed those responsible and then took a few disgruntled Scarlets to found a new chapter of the KotSH. Techncially, he was excommunicated, and had no legal right to do what he did, but noone felt like or was able to stop him. Oh well, I guess.

The Argent Dawn had already split off from the Scarlet Crusade and done their own thing. It's unclear whether they were aware of Tirion or his new Silver Hand, but they just bent over and accepted him when Tirion showed up and stopped the Lich King.

However, far as I know, Tirion never did anything concernign the SH in Stormwind or Ironforge, which had never ended. In theory, they're still around, since only it was Tirion's KotSH who fused with the Argent Dawn, and not all paladins as a whole.
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100 Human Paladin
9890
In WoWWiki Highlord Tirion is the leader of the Knights of the Silver Hand.
Defeating the Lich King along with Tirion able to at least put most of the Horde and Alliance squabbling aside and advancing the true ideals of the paladin would give the Highlord a consideration in rejoining the Alliance if he was interested in that. Right now Lord Grayson Shadowbreaker is the secondary leader of the Silver Hand in Stormwind. If Turalyon were to return, both Tirion and Grayson would likely approve of the advancement of the Silver Hand under his command.

Tirion and Darion Mograine are the only resistance to Sylvanas and the Forsaken from taking all of what was Lordaeron and the Northern Kingdoms.
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15 Human Priest
10570
In WoWWiki Highlord Tirion is the leader of the Knights of the Silver Hand.
Defeating the Lich King along with Tirion able to at least put most of the Horde and Alliance squabbling aside and advancing the true ideals of the paladin would give the Highlord a consideration in rejoining the Alliance if he was interested in that. Right now Lord Grayson Shadowbreaker is the secondary leader of the Silver Hand in Stormwind. If Turalyon were to return, both Tirion and Grayson would likely approve of the advancement of the Silver Hand under his command.

Tirion and Darion Mograine are the only resistance to Sylvanas and the Forsaken from taking all of what was Lordaeron and the Northern Kingdoms.


According to WoWpedia under Tirion Fordring:
Highlord Tirion Fordring is the Supreme Commander of the Argent Crusade and the current bearer of the Ashbringer.

You'll also find:
Following the death of his son Taelan, Tirion committed himself to refounding the order of the Silver Hand. The result was the Argent Crusade, an organization consisting of the old Knights of the Silver Hand and the Argent Dawn.

The emphasis in that quote is mine, he refounded the Silver Hand.

Listed under Knights of the Silver Hand:
Knights of the Silver Hand (a.k.a. Order of the Knights of the Silver Hand, Order of the Silver Hand, or simply the Silver Hand) was the order of paladins created after the First War by Uther the Lightbringer and Archbishop Alonsus Faol. Years after its decimation by the corrupted Prince Arthas during the Third War, the order in Lordaeron was then reformed by Tirion Fordring, who later merged it with the Argent Dawn to form the Argent Crusade in order to take the fight against the Lich King to Northrend.

Despite this, all human and dwarf paladins from Stormwind and Ironforge are referred to as members of the Silver Hand (and still with the Alliance), thus meaning the order is still active to some degree in the Alliance.

Again the emphasis is mine, not that here it states the Knights of the Silver Hand in Lordaeron was reformed by Tirion.
The article also states that the Paladins of Stormwind and Ironforge are identified as members of the Silver Hand. Only the Silver Hand in Lordaeron was merged with the Argent Dawn to form the Argent Crusade, the order is still active (other than Blizzard totally ignoring them) in Stormwind and Ironforge.
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90 Human Paladin
8315
I feel that the Human and Dwarf paladin introduction quests are still canon and up to date. Blizzard has still left in the lines in the quests that apparently still state that the Knights of the Silver Hand still exist and are active, as the player is Inducted into the Order. These quest's were modified to reflect the current affairs by the time of cataclysm (i.e orcs invasion instead of kobold camps), yet the text concerning the Knights of the Silver Hand was left untouched.

Further more, the lvl 20 and 50 paladin quest rewards are all labeled with the suffix "Of the Order", alluding to the Order of the Silver Hand.

However, main thing is that the Knights of the Silver Hand have done NOTHING, and most of their themes and stuff are taken up by the Argent Crusade. Hopefully, however, we'll see a few Human paladins affiliated with the Order in future patches. In the mean time, im grinding for that Tabard.
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1 Human Priest
0
12/10/2012 07:50 PMPosted by Mistreaver
even murdered a fellow paladin.

This didn't actually happen.

He fought Barthilas, essentially disarming him and winding him, but Tirion never delivered the 'death blow'. That honor was given to a horde warrior who essentially threw a spear into Barthilas's back. However, he didn't actually die even then. He survived (or was ressurected) becoming the Magistrate of Stratholme only to die again at the hands of Arthas during the purge.

What it boils down to is this: With the absence of an appointed leader, the highest ranking paladin of the Silver Hand is in command. This is how it works in both older and modern military forces as well. When a senior officer is killed in action, authority over unit command and even in some cases military command is given to the next highest ranking officer until a replacement can be appointed.

Now in the case of the Silver Hand, Tirion is one of the original five paladins. The others being Uther the Lightbringer, Saidan Dathrohan, Turalyon and Gavinrad the Dire. Out of the original five only two remain alive; Tirion and Turalyon. With Turalyon MIA that leaves Tirion the only active member of the original founders, which means that until King Varian as the leader of the Alliance appoints someone to replace him, Tirion is effectively the leader of the Silver Hand.

I have no doubt that when Turalyon does return leadership will pass to him. Not because Tirion is undeserving, he's more than proved himself to the Alliance despite his crimes in the past. But so that Tirion can focus entirely on leading the Argent Crusade. Assuming Turalyon wishes to take leadership at all since as it currently stands Turalyon would have no reason to challenge Tirion for leadership. Hell even Uther at this stage would likely recommend Tirion for leadership were he still alive given all that he's accomplished.
Edited by Vandriana on 12/11/2012 9:23 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
8315
I feel that Tirion basically just said "Screw you guys, Im going to make my Own Order of the Silver Hand! With blackjack... and hookers! You know what? Forget blackjack"

More elegantly put, My belief is that Tirion founded a new Order of the Silver Hand and invited anyone (be it Dwarf, Human, Blood Elf, etc) to join it. This order was separate from the Stormwind/Ironforge Order (hence to be referred as South Side) and while was willing to work with the Alliance, it was not part of it's command structure or affiliated with the Church of Light. Rather it was an independent organization.

Back in Blizzcon '07, the game demo for Wrath showed the Argent Crusade as actually being the Order of the Silver Hand. I think blizzard changed it to the Argent Crusade not only to avoid confusion, but to set it apart and make it apparent that it was not the same order as the Alliance Order of the Silver Hand.

But I agree, South Side Silver Hand needs a clear leader. I personally hope to see Turalyon (if he isnt neutral) or Arator take that roll.
Edited by Arieus on 12/11/2012 9:43 PM PST
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96 Undead Warlock
8200
12/10/2012 07:50 PMPosted by Mistreaver
See, I built my paladin's RP entirely around her refusal to obey Tirion Fordring. He was exiled and deposed of his titles and land. Just because the kingdom goes to hell doesn't suddenly mean he can come back and take things.


The Kingdom is gone. You can't still be exiled from a kingdom when it no longer exists. The king of which was ruler when he was exiled is dead, all those who exiled him are dead, the Argent Dawn, one of the last bastions of living in north Lordaeron, accepted him back, thus became a Argent. He later became the leader when he proposed uniting the Silverhand and Dawn into one, something that no one argued against.

He's still exiled from Alliance land, but he hasn't put a foot on Alliance land.

12/11/2012 09:27 PMPosted by Arieus
Back in Blizzcon when Wrath was announced, the Argent Crusade was actually the "Order of the Silver Hand". I think Blizzard, to remove confusion (unsuccessfully), changed it to the Argent Crusade, and had Tirion merge his Silver Hand with the Argent Dawn to create the Argent Crusade.


Source? I know the Royal Apothacary Service appeared, but Silver Hand isn't listen in the Removed Factions section.
Edited by Ximothy on 12/11/2012 9:39 PM PST
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96 Undead Warlock
8200
12/10/2012 01:20 PMPosted by Arieus
Yeah, thats fine. The Argent Dawn was founded as neither a Horde or Alliance organization. It was completely neutral during it's founding and continuing to be so is fine.


The Earthen Ring and Cenarion Circle were neutral when founded, yet you listed them in your list of stolen themes.
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90 Human Paladin
8315
Always thought Earthen Ring was originally a Horde organization since the Alliance didnt have any Shamans in Vanilla.

Error on the Cenarion Circle part.

Also,

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080718112052/wowwiki/images/c/c2/Trueblade_and_Fordring.jpg

http://www.wowpedia.org/Lord_Irulon_Trueblade

This guy was labeled as a Knight of the Silver Hand, but was changed to be neutral and a member of the Argent Crusade.
Edited by Arieus on 12/11/2012 9:57 PM PST
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1 Human Priest
0
12/11/2012 09:27 PMPosted by Arieus
I feel that Tirion basically just said "Screw you guys, Im going to make my Own Order of the Silver Hand! With blackjack... and hookers! You know what? Forget blackjack"

Well that's fine, no one can tell you what to think, but in truth Tirion didn't abandon the Alliance (although he has had every reason to) instead he saw past the blind hatred that both factions had for each other and realized that without a union between the factions, the Lich King would eventually triumph over all of Azeroth. As the leader of the Silver Hand, he's bound by the constraints of the Alliance, however as the leader of the Argent Crusade, he is free to work however he sees fit.

Now granted I can't read minds but I can already see this question coming: "How can he be the leader of the Silver Hand, which is alliance controlled, while also being the leader of the Argent Crusade, who openly works with the Horde?"

And while there isn't a definitive answer to that question, there are at least two other important lore characters which do the exact same thing, yet are not exiled from either of their factions. Specifically I am referring to Malfurion Stormrage and Hamuul Runetotem who individually are both loyal to the Alliance and Horde respectfully, but also serve as two of the three leaders (Cenarius being the third) of the Cenarion Circle which is a neutral organization.
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