First off, all the VP gear is unlocked at revered. So, once you get revered Golden Lotus, then you have 0 reason to continue doing those
1) There was a neck available from Klaxxi at honored.
2) If the ring was so needed, then farming shards was an option. So, again, it goes back to you wanted the *faster* way, and you chose to ignore the other options.
Except the ring/neck at exalted for Klaxxi/Lotus didn't cost Valor. So spending Valor on the neck or a ring was silly because you could get one that didn't cost a weekly currency. In other words, getting the ring and neck saved you 2500 Valor that you could use to buy other Valor items.
Also, there is a point at which people think it's crazy to do something. If you got 1 valor per random heroic once you hit the 1000 weekly cap...no one would continue to do them to grind valor unless they were like 5 off from an item. Likewise, the shards, assuming a 10% drop rate (which is the highest listed on Wowhead), gave something like 1-1.25 rep kill mob kill. That's less than grinding out the Classic goblin reps.
I've actually discussed this concept here: http://balkothsword.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-ring-vendor-on-optional.html
Well, it means that you, at most, had 3 weeks of raiding and that *huge* amount of dailies before hitting exalted, and considering the first week and part of the second you would not have had AC and SP unlocked, you can't include them.
Except we were also leveling and spamming heroics to get gear.
Also, since food prices were obscene, we were also doing Tillers, though technically we could have just spent far more gold to get the food.
Are you kidding? The need for reputation grinding, especially for crafters was much MUCH more important in TBC and Vanilla
Not to mention that to get INTO heroics, you had to farm rep, up to revered until they nerfed it half way through the expansion. SO saying it's "never" been like this is a flat faced lie.
How many those involved daily quests? Hint: none.
How many of those had any kind of daily gated reputation? Hint: none.
How many could you spam whenever you want to max out your rep? Hint: all.
We've *never* had raid gear locked behind daily reputation caps. Ever. In the past, if you really wanted the item, you could grind it out as quickly or as slowly as you wanted. And you weren't punished for missing a day, didn't matter if you spent four hours on one day or two hours each on two days.
No, they get it. Which is why they are stating that they wish it hadn't been what happened. But the problem becomes "How do you provide rewards that matter without making it seem mandatory for guilds that do top end progression?
No, they claimed it was a matter of poor communication.
Here's a simple solution that's already been mentioned in the thread: time gate them like the raids. The people the dailies are aimed at likely aren't going to be leveling in a day or two, and even then they have plenty of heroics to do. If the rewards aren't available until after the top, say, 1000 guilds would already have the equivalent, it wouldn't have been a problem.
Did you play BC? You got one badge per boss, but there was a daily lockout, just like raids had a weekly lockout.
Oh yes. In fact, I got realm firsts for probably every single heroic.
But you also needed far less badges. I think I only used two items (Orb of the Soul-Eater offhand and Icon of the Silver Crescent trinket). The game has vastly changed since then, but regardless you were never going to manage to do every single heroic in a single day, so there was no effective cap.
Which is not something they will do, because they don't want players to feel like progression raiding guilds get a 1-up on everyone simply because they are heroic progression raiders.
How is that a 1-up? "Save your valor and you can buy several 489 items if you've been grinding rep two months into the expansion."
BUt if it hadn't been the dailies, it would have been something else.
The top 20 or whatever guilds in the world ALWAYS do multiple runs the first week of normals. That's always been the case. The dailies are IN ADDITION to that.
We're not talking about removing what it's balanced behind, we're talking about trying to quicken the progression of reaching that balancing point.
You're saying "Dailies are optional because you can eventually get enough gear to beat the bosses without the valor items."
I'm saying "Flasks are optional because you can eventually get enough gear to beat the bosses without the stat bonus."
Imagine if flasks were assumed but cost 5000g each. Don't you think a lot of guilds (overall) would skip them and just wait for gear to drop?
No, because you cannot physically enter LFR without the appropriate gear level. No matter what you do, no matter which guild you are in, no matter how much or little you play, if you don't have the right gear level (with or without cheating the system), it is impossible to enter LFR
It is impossible to beat Heroic Gara'jal in all 450 gear. I'm 99% sure it's impossible to beat Heroic Gara'jal in all 463 gear. Literally mathematically impossible, you simply cannot put out the DPS.
But there is also a max cap on valor. If you are working on your reputations so you can get that gear level up, and you hit your max cap, but you haven't unlocked a new piece of valor gear to buy yet, what are you doing to do with those VPs that you missed? Oh yeah, you'll lose them.
You had three weeks before you'd max Valor. By that time you'd, at a minimum, have revered Klaxxi/Lotus and honored Shado/August. Probably at least revered with all, but I'm not 100% sure on that. So you might have to buy one valor item by week three, but by week four you'd have all of them unlocked.
12/07/2012 07:06 PMHowever, if you just blew through the dailies with your fellow guildies to insure you all had access to the rewards you would have been done with dailies in 4 weeks. In those 4 weeks you could have bought 2 or 3 pieces with your valor. Im sure the number of times those two pieces made a wipe or not difference were few.
Posted by Arkthan
I did have all the dailies done in 3-3.5 weeks.
And you would be incorrect, sir, Heroic Gara'jal with zero epic weapons says hello. Was totally fun wiping <1%. On our kill, he had literally raised his arm to wipe us, we were microseconds away from dying.
12/07/2012 07:06 PMYou are one of the few people posting who have a reason to complain since it actually affects you. The problem with the most of the people who complain about dailies only do LFR. They cant get their easy purples anymore, arent patient enough to wait for LFR drops, and wont comit to a real raid guild. If they spent half the effort on dailies that they spent crying on forums, they would be done for the day.
Posted by Arkthan
Just because a quest "can" be completed every day doesn't mean that it is intended that every single daily quest be done every single day, just that they are available to do so.
Except if you don't do it you fall behind anyone who does, and you can't catch up. Not until you're both revered/exalted, at least.
12/07/2012 07:52 PMBy all the logic I've seen quoted as to why this is bad for top end progression guilds, the issue is that it gives upgrades, is doable, and is something they don't want to do. This pretty much translates as "other people can't have stuff because we'll feel we need it too", and that's pretty much the most selfish attitude I can imagine.
Posted by Alelsa
We just want our success in raiding to be determined by how well we do in raiding. Not in grinding PvP gear. Not in doing daily quests.
We don't want to set up a huge arms race that's worse than it already is.
12/08/2012 03:56 AMThat kind of min/maxing and pushing people to do every quest every day is only required if you're trying to be cutting edge progression raiders... and if you ARE trying to be that, then yes, it does and should take a lot of work and dedication.
Posted by Ðrave
You don't think it takes a lot of work and dedication to level and gear and be ready for raids within a week?
You don't think it takes a lot of work and dedication to wipe hundreds of times?
We're fine with a lot of work in dedication. We just want it to be done, y'know, in raids.
12/08/2012 03:56 AMPretty much what I'm hearing from people is "I want to be able to compete with the top guilds in the world but I don't want to spend as much time playing as they do."
Posted by Ðrave
Say what? Those guilds raid like 8 hours a week 6+ days a week. My guild, at least, is trying to compete with that.
12/08/2012 03:56 AMIf they weren't doing dailies, they'd be doing something else to squeeze every last piece of gear out of the game between raids. It's what they do, that's why they're the best. You can't expect to only log on for the raids and still be up with the top dogs.
Posted by Ðrave
What did they do outside of raids during t11? How about t12? How about t13?
But if that's the case, then going back and doing the raid on normal one more week, instead of spending the week wiping at 1%, could potentially (unless RNG is just awful for the entire group) give upgrades just the same, allowing them to not wipe at 1%.
Except that's a week falling behind other guilds. Which hurts ranking. Which hurts recruitment.
They are not mandatory. They are not even that useful. You only needed to grind 1-2 to revered, and that was it. That only took a couple of weeks to do. I'm only finishing them up because I like vanity.
We're talking about the first month of the expansion. Not the current situation.
Klaxxi/GL already sell necklace ring at honored. Shieldwaal also has a VP ring. So it is not necessary to get any faction to exalted for that.
Those cost valor, exalted GL/Klaxxi don't. Spending valor on those means not being able to spend valor on something else. You're giving up a valor item overall by buying ring/neck with valor.
12/08/2012 07:21 AMDude, I just wanna say your name is awesome, but In the name of the people of water, I WILL... freeze / Drown you to death.
Posted by Nyariá
My favorite was Order, personally. Though Water Mage with Staff of Drowning was pretty crazy.
You don't want to repeat something once a day but you'll do the same thing multiple times daily? Makes no sense to me.
You could grind out reputation as quickly or as slowly as you wanted with tabards. And you weren't punished for skipping a day. Plus, you could grind out the rep *only when you needed it* since there was no cap on reputation.
And I turn back, once again, to the statement that THIS ISN'T ANY DIFFERENT THAN THE GAME HAS ALWAYS BEEN! If I don't have time to raid and do dungeons one week, I can never get back that lost valor. If you weren't able to go with your guild, you'll never get back those chances at loot.
Except there's a difference between having to do X amount of stuff every day and 7X stuff during an entire week. If you're busy for a few days, you can still do the weekly stuff.
Also, SOMEONE in your guild most likely got the loot that dropped, so it was put to use, not wasted or lost.