2200(current rating) WW Monk pvp class review

90 Orc Monk
9290
1. Monks don't have a mobility problem.

2. Why would you take something that's 1.5 min cooldown over 15% energy regen and 1+ chi.

3. ox is !@#$.

4. zen med isn't that good atm, not worth taking over ToD.. + ToD is too good, desperse/cheatdeath/shield wall.. kills through it
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32 Human Paladin
300
>2. Why would you take something that's 1.5 min cooldown over 15% energy regen and 1+ chi.

Good input otherwise but that is my question too.
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90 Orc Monk
9290
You don't question it. If you know how energy starved monks can get.. then you would take Ascension, Chi brew gives burst but so does Ascension.. you just have to know how to burst right.
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32 Human Paladin
300
12/11/2012 07:28 PMPosted by Dominozx
You don't question it. If you know how energy starved monks can get.. then you would take Ascension, Chi brew gives burst but so does Ascension.. you just have to know how to burst right.

What are you talking about? Do you know that my original post was phrased to ask why the OP chose Chi Brew?
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90 Orc Monk
9290
Well i'm basically saying difference between them, him using that.. No idea.. probably useful with a certain comp or something.
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I use it because jabbing is typically a terrible use of GCDs when bursting. It doesn't hit very hard(less than a white hit). Also to generate Chi in situations like Shockwaved>warrior + feral popped cds>I have less than 2 chi. So basically I need to trinket and generate some chi immediately, I don't have a global to do it.

Or, I use it a lot for SFB on a target that it kiting me when I'm pretty sure I'm going to cause continued pressure/get a kill or I am running cds. Things can hit/crit very hard at over 10 yard range(like 80-90k/chi is pretty huge).

I also don't have any problems with energy generation in burst windows. If you can single out a target, FoF actually does amazing dps in between RSK cds...that helps with energy generation. If you can't, there's energizing brew on a 1 minute cd. You can also work in more SFBs over BoKs. It's stronger damage/chi against heavier armor and will consume more gcds before you have to jab for more chi. Also bursting with chi brew affords you basically 2 free jabs worth of chi and 2 more gcds you can go without jabbing for more chi, in which time you will generate more energy. Ascension will get you more jabs in the long run and thus more Chi, but I find that bursting in the smaller windows was more important for me.

The reason I don't use CJL for ranged chi generation is because it takes a couple seconds to even tick once, making it an awful use of the gcd. In addition, it only has a 20% chance(unless they buffed it again recently...they keep messing with it) to generate chi when it hits. Plus you're not moving towards the target during that time. Because of these drawbacks, I use cjl almost exclusively for the knockback effect.

I've done the brew vs ascension game often, and just personally I find that I don't have energy problems. Haste is the second stat I reforge into after crit, so that could have an effect on it. I've tried both, but what it comes down to is saving gcds, and having a way to generate Chi at range. Maybe if jab wasn't so horrible for damage I'd consider ascension. Also, if you run the math for sustained chi generation you will find that ascension is very close to chi brew if chi brew is used on cooldown, up until a certain haste level that no sane pvper will have because you will simply not experience the uptime to warrant that kind of energy generation. Ascension should give you higher sustained overall though. There are things you could do with the spare energy (like healing sphere), so it's not a wasted talent if you're getting kited and energy capping a lot. Comes down to play style I would assume.

Tl:DR I've used both, but it comes down to saving gcds for me. There are too many moments where I need chi NOW and it's more advantageous in my perspective to not use have to use 2 gcds on jab.
Edited by Innverse on 12/11/2012 11:56 PM PST
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32 Human Paladin
300
I use it because jabbing is typically a terrible use of GCDs when bursting. It doesn't hit very hard(less than a white hit). Also to generate Chi in situations like Shockwaved>warrior + feral popped cds>I have less than 2 chi. So basically I need to trinket and generate some chi immediately...

A post with many good points. I thank you for this. Although, you didn't really address (or at least, from my reading comprehension) the ability to pool one more chi for burst. Not too appealing for your comp?
Edited by Tonik on 12/12/2012 12:00 AM PST
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May I temporarily hi-jack your thread? Sorry if any of these questions were asked, I was reading this thread yesterday and thinking of a few things to discuss, might have forgotten points.

Some bullets

1. Tiger's Lust truly the best of the tier? I have a hard time making sense of a minor sprint cc break is overpowered on even the meanest warrior. Momentum seems like it could be decent, but Celerity is attractive too.

2. Chi Brew. I assume you take this to build CP's at range for a quick Tiger's Lust or the like. Couldn't you just throw a quick CJL and get it off? Power Strikes I don't really like, but Ascension seems like it would allow you to set up some nice burst.

3. Leg Sweep. Really better than charging ox wave? I know you cite the ability to just roll into range and the like, it's a good point. I'm still split here, being kited seems too easy by frost mages and such.

4. Glyph of Zen Meditation worse than Glyph of Touch of Death? Glyph of Fire Blossom? Glyph of Blackout Kick a must?

Thanks for the thread in general, great stuff.


1. Tiger's lust is too good as a root break and for team utility. I can't imagine a reason not to get it. It stacks with things like ghost wolf and druid forms to help your healers escape the melee trains. It's super useful on priests who need to run at things to fear them. Even using it on your paladin to make sure he can cross dangerous positions quickly to get cc off is a good idea if you don't need it. Also, distance for distance it gets you more extra distance than a third roll (like from celerity).

2. Answered above.

3. Comes down to a 5second stun vs a 3 second stun. The range on ox wave is nice, but the projectile is extremely slow. And the stun is just...less of a stun. I do occasionally take ox wave in rbgs though when I'm FC'ing. Hitting half of the team in a line is pretty cool.

4. Sadly, there aren't any better glyphs. Trust me I'd like there to be. ToD does come in handy a lot more at the higher ratings than it did in the low ones. The knowledge that you only need to keep them below 10 for 1 gcd is very comforting when, like dominoes said, someone pops a major defensive cd like dispersion and you can kill them through it.

As for the minor glyphs...I think SFB is more mandatory than I'd like it to be, but BoK is entirely optional.
Edited by Innverse on 12/12/2012 12:22 AM PST
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12/11/2012 11:59 PMPosted by Tonik
I use it because jabbing is typically a terrible use of GCDs when bursting. It doesn't hit very hard(less than a white hit). Also to generate Chi in situations like Shockwaved>warrior + feral popped cds>I have less than 2 chi. So basically I need to trinket and generate some chi immediately...

A post with many good points. I thank you for this. Although, you didn't really address (or at least, from my reading comprehension) the ability to pool one more chi for burst. Not too appealing for your comp?


Pool 1 more chi per cycle sure. It's nice to be able to rsk>fof without having to jab in between.

The way I see chi brew, though, is that's keeping 4 chi in your back pocket. It's off the gcd. So you can rsk>fof if you really want/need to anyway. Just not every time it's up. So 1 chi every 25 seconds(since you aren't going to use that extra chi for a tiger palm, are you?) or 4 chi every 1:30 for bursting. On top of all that other stuff. Up to you.
Edited by Innverse on 12/12/2012 12:28 AM PST
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32 Human Paladin
300
Great discussion points, thanks.

I'm a decent (2000+) player and just aggregating knowledge from experienced monks, you've helped my process along :D
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90 Night Elf Monk
4910
One thing regarding BoK dot some people may not have noticed... The damage it does stacks. If you use 3 boks, the DoT will inflict damage regarding all three BoK's, not only the last one you landed. I haven't tested this properly yet, but I've already landed a BoK, watched the damage tick, landed another one before the DoT was over (It got refreshed and the damage was higher). I saw this on a patch note on the hotfixes if my memory isn't trolling me.

I spent some time using Ascension and, for melee fights, it rocks. I always kept at least one Chi up... But when it came to ranged classes, meh, it was awful, trully. In terms of utility, both are a lot viable, but Chi Brew can save you much more than Ascension.

Innverse, I would like to ask you two things... Many people have stated that they would like to see Dematerialize included for WW Monks... Do you think this would be "too much" for us? Or that it would be a good idea? I consider it viable, but only for like 50% of the duration it have on MW (Since it's obviously not our spec). And I find it would be interesting to have a passive which reduce the time of CC effects like Stun and Fears (Not disorients or freezes) by 20~30% on us instead of dematerialize.
I also think that would be awesome if we had a passive that allowed Tiger's Lust to make the monk immune to snares and roots for 3 secs when the skill is used on himself. What do you think of this? (I have spoken about it in other topics but never got an answer. lol)
Edited by Artheran on 12/12/2012 4:43 AM PST
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90 Human Monk
16870
Nothing exploits a monk's weakness more than 2's do.
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90 Orc Monk
10295
Great discussion points, thanks.

I'm a decent (2000+) player and just aggregating knowledge from experienced monks, you've helped my process along :D


2k+ and no main post?

Good post @ the OP. In general we still have issues that need to be addressed. Most players won't even run with a Monk. There's just to much competition, and better fills > monk. Thats just my opinion.
Edited by Monkology on 12/12/2012 6:23 AM PST
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Love this post helps so much <3
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Innverse, I would like to ask you two things... Many people have stated that they would like to see Dematerialize included for WW Monks... Do you think this would be "too much" for us? Or that it would be a good idea? I consider it viable, but only for like 50% of the duration it have on MW (Since it's obviously not our spec). And I find it would be interesting to have a passive which reduce the time of CC effects like Stun and Fears (Not disorients or freezes) by 20~30% on us instead of dematerialize.
I also think that would be awesome if we had a passive that allowed Tiger's Lust to make the monk immune to snares and roots for 3 secs when the skill is used on himself. What do you think of this? (I have spoken about it in other topics but never got an answer. lol)


1) On dematerialize for WW monks...I think the skill is too powerful for everyone. You don't/won't see people killing healer monks in hard switches because they have the same mobility we do. You know how hard it is to kill us when we aren't stunned. My opinion is that you're you will eventually see dematerialize removed or changed. While the mechanic is circumventable (it has a 10 second icd iirc), it is still extremely strong, especially when it comes to switching to a healer. I honestly don't know which is worse. 30% duration of most stuns where you can't hit the target(1-2 gcds depending on your class), or the old astral shift where you take 30% less damage over the duration of the stun. Astral shift didn't last long, and I honestly think dematerialize is worse overall. That isn't to say that WW's could use the ability to mitigate some damage while stunned (the ability to transcendence comes to mind and might make the glyph more useful although the cooldown would have to be increased).

Something else that might be interesting and unique may be to increase a WW's parry/dodge/deflect chance while stunned by giving them full sparring while stunned(which with the glyph would be useful against both melee and casters, and would help the tanks in pve as well if it only affected parry for them, for instance). I know that's not what people would want, but it would be an interesting concept that fit into the lore and wouldn't be GROSSLY overpowered while allowing some passive mitigation to persist(albeit RNG based, which is kind of the opposite of what people would want as I said). In general I think it's counter-productive for pvp to have ways out of EVERY stun, but I also think that a lot of stuns have too short of a cooldown compared to trinket. (Shockwave/ Fists of Fury especially although I really hate shockwave lately...skill is super annoying) Given that problem burst classes like mages and warriors have been someone toned down in the last hotfix, it's not AS MUCH of of a problem, but you still will die in a stun with no trinket meaning you have to still have to save the trinket for their offensive cooldowns since you have no other way to survive while stunned.

Anyway it's not my role to offer suggestions, to balance or the like(I don't have raw developer numbers to suggest WW monks die in stuns 65% more than any other class, for example). I'm not sure we really NEED improvements in this regard, but they certainly would help.

2) Another common topic. Tiger's lust freedom if it ever exists should last at most 1 second simply to counteract lag. I disagree you should be using it to break spammable snares at all. You have roll for that on a shorter cd. Tiger's lust is to break roots (and put them on dr once every 30 seconds), and to give your teammates some mobility on top of their toolkit which probably already includes some way to break snares themselves. This is evidenced by the way it stacks upon the movement speed increasing abilities of other classes (like disperse, travel form, and ghost wolf). I don't think it's out of line to require you to break your own snares with a different ability. If you want freedom, the ability already exists on one class who needs the unique tool. Freedom also synergizes well with tiger's lust for that matter. Makes paladins good teammates. The chi cost is something that is more up for discussion in my opinion, however.
Edited by Innverse on 12/12/2012 9:03 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Monk
4910

Innverse, I would like to ask you two things... Many people have stated that they would like to see Dematerialize included for WW Monks... Do you think this would be "too much" for us? Or that it would be a good idea? I consider it viable, but only for like 50% of the duration it have on MW (Since it's obviously not our spec). And I find it would be interesting to have a passive which reduce the time of CC effects like Stun and Fears (Not disorients or freezes) by 20~30% on us instead of dematerialize.
I also think that would be awesome if we had a passive that allowed Tiger's Lust to make the monk immune to snares and roots for 3 secs when the skill is used on himself. What do you think of this? (I have spoken about it in other topics but never got an answer. lol)


1) On dematerialize for WW monks...I think the skill is too powerful for everyone. You don't/won't see people killing healer monks in hard switches because they have the same mobility we do. You know how hard it is to kill us when we aren't stunned. My opinion is that you're you will eventually see dematerialize removed or changed. While the mechanic is circumventable (it has a 10 second icd iirc), it is still extremely strong, especially when it comes to switching to a healer. I honestly don't know which is worse. 30% duration of most stuns where you can't hit the target(1-2 gcds depending on your class), or the old astral shift where you take 30% less damage over the duration of the stun. Astral shift didn't last long, and I honestly think dematerialize is worse overall. That isn't to say that WW's could use the ability to mitigate some damage while stunned (the ability to transcendence comes to mind and might make the glyph more useful).

Something else that might be interesting and unique may be to increase a WW's parry/dodge chance while stunned by giving them full sparring while stunned(which with the glyph would be useful against both melee and casters, and would help the tanks in pve as well). I know that's not what people would want, but it would be an interesting concept that fit into the lore and wouldn't be GROSSLY overpowered while allowing some passive mitigation to persist.

Anyway it's not my role to offer suggestions, to balance or the like(I don't have raw developer numbers to suggest WW monks die in stuns 65% more than any other class, for example). I'm not sure we really NEED improvements in this regard, but they certainly would help.

2) Another common topic. Tiger's lust freedom if it ever exists should last at most 1 second simply to counteract lag. I disagree you should be using it to break spammable snares at all. You have roll for that on a shorter cd. Tiger's lust is to break roots (and put them on dr once every 30 seconds), and to give your teammates some mobility on top of their toolkit which probably already includes some way to break snares themselves. This is evidenced by the way it stacks upon the movement speed increasing abilities of other classes (like disperse, travel form, and ghost wolf). I don't think it's out of line to require you to break your own snares with a different ability. If you want freedom, the ability already exists on one class who needs the unique tool. Freedom also synergizes well with tiger's lust for that matter. Makes paladins good teammates. The chi cost is something that is more up for discussion in my opinion, however.


I see your points... But don't you think that due the mechanics of the game, have more parry and dodge while stunned doesn't seens, weird? I know dematerialize is quite strong, that's why I suggested a reduction on the effect so it lasts less. But the idea to parry/dodge while stunned, feared or whatever is weird in my opinion... Viable, but weird! Stuns usually stop the target from dodging, parrying and such right?

And I don't use Tiger's Lust on Snares, don't take me wrong... Maybe I haven't put my question well enough to point it. The Freedom effect is what I wanted to really focus on. Anyway, you answered it. lol

I see... I'm still working on that sinergy topic, so this helps quite a lot! Thanks :3
Edited by Artheran on 12/12/2012 9:11 AM PST
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I see your points... But don't you think that due the mechanics of the game, have more parry and dodge while stunned doesn't seens, weird? I know dematerialize is quite strong, that's why I suggested a reduction on the effect so it lasts less. But the idea to parry/dodge while stunned, feared or whatever is weird in my opinion... Viable, but weird! Stuns usually stop the target from dodging, parrying and such right?

And I don't use Tiger's Lust on Snares, don't take me wrong... Maybe I haven't put my question well enough to point it. The Freedom effect is what I wanted to really focus on. Anyway, you answered it. lol

I see... I'm still working on that sinergy topic, so this helps quite a lot! Thanks :3


Yeah it would be unique from a game mechanics standpoint and it would change something that has been present for a while. I suppose the effect would end up being something like just having a nerfed version of dematerialize anyway. (a % miss chance while stunned instead of a 2s 100% miss chance). I just felt it makes more sense for it to be parry/dodge from a kung-fu lore standpoint which I know really doesn't need to enter into the topic. It'd still be easy to code in and there are plenty of mechanics that go against the natural order of things (ACTIONS THAT CAN BE USED WHILE STUNNED? BLASPHEMY!<---there didn't used to be any of these in the game as it sort of undermines the purpose of a stun).

As for tiger's lust having freedom. the TL:DR i guess is that It's this player's opinion that it already has too much going for it to have that immunity also backing it up.
Edited by Innverse on 12/12/2012 1:56 PM PST
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