Noble Orcs?

85 Tauren Shaman
6230
12/08/2012 06:03 PMPosted by Vyrin
How are those for some geopolitical concerns?


None of those are comparable to real world ones for the US nuking Kabul though.
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100 Troll Shaman
5695
12/08/2012 05:56 PMPosted by Trook
Isnt Orgimmar a target in the war anyway?

Absolutely.

Mind you, Theramore's position enables it to intersect right through the heart of Horde territory, and places it within striking distance of not one but two Horde capitals (which it did).

A comparable area for a Horde base would be a something like New Kargath (only with ready access to reinforcements by the sea, which it lacks) with forward operating bases in Loch Modan and the Redridge Mountains.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
12/08/2012 06:09 PMPosted by Skytotem
None of those are comparable to real world ones for the US nuking Kabul though.


I'd say they're roughly comparable. The difference is that one is fictional and the other isn't.
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15 Human Priest
10570
Theramore was the original poster's primary reason for saying there was no such thing as a Noble Orc. I'm just saying that's pretty weak as the main reason.

Theramore the military base that had been destroying other cities.


You're claiming Theramore has been destroying other cities (note plural), name 2.
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
12/08/2012 06:14 PMPosted by Vyrin
I'd say they're roughly comparable. The difference is that one is fictional and the other isn't.

Ehhh...

it ultimately turned the Alliance from "not really taking you seriously" to "total war against the Horde" status,

it ended up almost getting Orgrimmar wiped off the map in a retaliatory strike that only didn't happen because Kalec talked Jaina down,

was a factor in the Kirin Tor fully joining the Alliance, and caused the Horde to begin to heavily fracture.


1. Who was going to 'take the US seriously' if we bombed Kabul?

2. I don't think they've got anything long range enough to hit us...

3. In all honesty, no western nation would bat an eye, and the ones that would be up in arms about it either don't have the power to do anything about it, or already don't like us.

I'm just not seeing the comparison.
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Okay but that's not all theramoore was doing, it was serving as an alliance port to put more tanks and soldiers into the barrens it was a valid target.


As part of a war the Horde started.

Ogrimmar has been funneling soldiers and Catapults into Ashenvale. Are you saying that would justify the Night Elves nuking it? After all, it's right on the border with Ashenvale.


Remember that song in the Wizard of Oz?
If I only had a brain!
Yea, that comes to mind whenever you type.


Please don't. As angry as I get about the Horde sometimes, I try very hard never to descend into personal attacks, instead focusing on my reasoning for what I believe about the IN-GAME factions and IN-GAME lore. I would very much appreciate the same courtesy being extended my way. If you seriously cannot stand my posts, and do not care to make substantial arguments against my exact reasoning, please use the Ignore feature rather than making personal attacks against me.
Edited by Jaelara on 12/8/2012 6:28 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
7705
I just want to say: Theramore wasn't retaliation for Taurajo.

That was a Tauren settlement. Don't try to argue that Garrosh was making a master plan to destroy Theramore because their forces dared attack his best friends the Tauren. This is Garrosh we're talking about.

He destroyed Theramore because he wanted to destroy Theramore and cripple Alliance military leadership before he started a full out war against them. The Alliance wasn't going to attack him unprovoked, so the only way to draw out the fleet was to assemble his army and then give them too much time to prepare.

This play allowed him to blockade Kalimdor, and prepare for assaulting Ashenvale again ; his agenda has always always always been to expand Northwest, and use the fertile lands to improve Orcish society. Durotar doesn't really have a lumber industry, and Azshara doesn't seem to satisfy him.
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12/08/2012 06:29 PMPosted by Dimian
Jaelara, do you also play Meiyo on Cenarion Circle? Both of you seem to have this thing for Jaina and some kind of sick obsession with the utter glorification of the Alliance and vilification of the Horde, regardless of context.


Please read my post to Thunder above. I come hear to debate and discuss lore, and lore alone.
If you cannot directly counter my specific arguments, I would appreciate it if you would not reply at all, even if you must put me on ignore.
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19 Goblin Priest
0
I can't press it hard enough. Still doesn't answer the question.

You claim to want to discuss and debate lore but all you do is shove propaganda in everyone's face. I've got a few Alliance toons (in fact, my main is an Alliance 90), and I'm on an actual RP-PVP server.

Checking out that phat crafted PVP gear, you must be hardcore against the Horde.

In any case, two Horde cities that got destroyed besides or including Taurajo? Are you ignoring the assaults by the very Alliance-friendly faction south of Ratchet?
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
1. Who was going to 'take the US seriously' if we bombed Kabul?

2. I don't think they've got anything long range enough to hit us...

3. In all honesty, no western nation would bat an eye, and the ones that would be up in arms about it either don't have the power to do anything about it, or already don't like us.

I'm just not seeing the comparison.


You said that there were no geopolitical consequences to Garrosh's attack on Theramore, I pointed out that there were many. That they aren't identical isn't the point; the point is that there were heavy geopolitical consequences to Garrosh's attack on Theramore which I pointed out.

The basic Horde argument here is "The Alliance burned down some huts in the Barrens and killed combatants who tried to stop them in an effort to aid their allies who were weathering unprovoked Horde attack. Therefore, the Horde killing every man, woman, and child in Theramore is tit-for-tat retaliation."

It's not, and if you argue that it is then you're wearing glasses colored so red that you aren't really even a factor in the argument.
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15 Human Priest
10570
12/08/2012 06:43 PMPosted by Dimian
In any case, two Horde cities that got destroyed besides or including Taurajo? Are you ignoring the assaults by the very Alliance-friendly faction south of Ratchet?

A handful of tents doesn't a city make.
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19 Goblin Priest
0
What the hell do you think tauren live in? Stone-hewn cities like Stormwind?
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
12/08/2012 06:50 PMPosted by Vyrin
no geopolitical consequences

12/08/2012 06:03 PMPosted by Vyrin
How about the vast array of geopolitical concerns that exist irl and not ingame...


I get how you could read it as saying that but what I'm saying is that a world where the Horde and Alliance are the only major powers is hardly comparable to irl where there are hundreds of countries that all communicate with each other pretty regularly.

I'm saying it's a poor comparison :P

12/08/2012 06:50 PMPosted by Vyrin
Therefore, the Horde killing every man, woman, and child in Theramore is tit-for-tat retaliation.


Not even remotely what I'm arguing.

I'm arguing Theramoore was a valid military target.

The Horde wants t win the war, this is not an issue of 'right or wrong' this is an issue of winning or losing.

The Horde won't win the war if Theramoore continues to pump troops into the area.

Theramoore had to go, and acting like the Horde is "BABY EATING EVIL" for making a valid military decision is silly.

Was it harsh and is the Horde still a rather unprovoked aggressor in the grand scheme of the war? Yes of course.
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
As part of a war the Horde started.

Ogrimmar has been funneling soldiers and Catapults into Ashenvale. Are you saying that would justify the Night Elves nuking it? After all, it's right on the border with Ashenvale.


I'd say Org is a valid military target I mean heck the Alliiance had guys in the Kolkar crag and a fleet in Tides of War that were going after it.
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The Horde won't win the war if Theramoore continues to pump troops into the area.

Theramoore had to go, and acting like the Horde is "BABY EATING EVIL" for making a valid military decision is silly.

Was it harsh and is the Horde still a rather unprovoked aggressor in the grand scheme of the war? Yes of course.


I can accept this view if and only if you would argue the exact same thing if the Alliance razed Ogrimmar. Though I still think it's ludicrous to argue that Theramore is "a military base" rather than a sovreign nation that uses a military to defend its borders and interests just like every other sovreign nation.
Edited by Jaelara on 12/8/2012 7:06 PM PST
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90 Gnome Rogue
7580
Therefore, the Horde killing every man, woman, and child in Theramore is tit-for-tat retaliation.


Was it harsh and is the Horde still a rather unprovoked aggressor in the grand scheme of the war? Yes of course.


When the Alliance was amassing this GIANT military to fight the "encroaching Horde" that was just a diversion to nuke the place, is it illogical to assume people were evacuating via mage portals? "Every man, woman and child" might have been the intent, but I doubt the Alliance is derpy enough to corral all the "bystanders" together and make them an easy target. Just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

The Horde won't win the war if Theramoore continues to pump troops into the area.

Theramoore had to go, and acting like the Horde is "BABY EATING EVIL" for making a valid military decision is silly.

Was it harsh and is the Horde still a rather unprovoked aggressor in the grand scheme of the war? Yes of course.


I can accept this view if and only if you would argue the exact same thing if the Alliance razed Ogrimmar. Though I still think it's ludicrous to argue that Theramore is "a military base" rather than a sovreign nation that uses a military to defend its borders and interests just like every other sovreign nation.


Theramore isn't the single largest city the Horde has.
Edited by Dashadeash on 12/8/2012 7:08 PM PST
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
12/08/2012 07:04 PMPosted by Jaelara
I can accept this view if and only if you would argue the exact same thing if the Alliance razed Ogrimmar. Though I still think it's ludicrous to argue that Theramore is "a military base" rather than a sovreign nation that uses a military to defend its borders and interests just like every other sovreign nation.


The capitals of nations get invaded in war.

I'm confused by the idea Org wasn't already on the table, or was ever off of it...?

I mean, Theramoore's a city-state but it's a city-state pumping out weapons and soldiers I don't get why it would be off the table just because people live there, same logic used at Taurajo.
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
12/08/2012 07:07 PMPosted by Dashadeash
When the Alliance was amassing this GIANT military to fight the "encroaching Horde" that was just a diversion to nuke the place, is it illogical to assume people were evacuating via mage portals? "Every man, woman and child" might have been the intent, but I doubt the Alliance is derpy enough to corral all the "bystanders" together and make them an easy target. Just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.


Huh?

What are you even talking about?

I don't think Garrosh gave a darn whether the civilians got hit or not that's not what made the attack harsh though, it's the fact that everybody got blasted with a crazy magic bomb.

EDIT:

12/08/2012 07:07 PMPosted by Dashadeash
Theramore isn't the single largest city the Horde has.


aaand?

So, are people telling me I should be screaming that org is offlimits?

Cause I don't agree with that, it's dumb, org is an industrial base for the horde, of course the Alliance should attack it.
Edited by Skytotem on 12/8/2012 7:10 PM PST
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12/08/2012 07:07 PMPosted by Dashadeash


Was it harsh and is the Horde still a rather unprovoked aggressor in the grand scheme of the war? Yes of course.


When the Alliance was amassing this GIANT military to fight the "encroaching Horde" that was just a diversion to nuke the place, is it illogical to assume people were evacuating via mage portals? "Every man, woman and child" might have been the intent, but I doubt the Alliance is derpy enough to corral all the "bystanders" together and make them an easy target. Just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.


The Book "Tides of War" indicates that there was a single ship that evacuated, and that many people, civilians included, specifically stayed to defend their homes.

Often, people do not abandon their homes in a crisis because they are attached and believe they can weather the storm. The people of Theramore believed they were fighting off a Horde ground army and would win the day. Because of this, it is official that many, many civilians died in Theramore that day.
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