Hunter Compendium 5.4

91 Worgen Hunter
7520
Glaive Toss has an extremely high chance to proc trinkets, a lot of that having to do from the fact that it is 2 projectiles. That is why I use the first glaive toss right away, to try to get trinket procs going before the rest of cooldowns.

As for keeping that first serpent sting up, I wait until the readiness double kill command, then depending on how far the target is from me I either glaive toss as well or immediately get 1 cobra shot off. Then glaive toss, then another cobra shot, dire beast, then use the second bestial wrath. Also refresh rapid fire a few seconds later. I guess you could consider all of these "small improvements" but DPS is all about min/maxing, why not do what's best?


GT doesn't 'have an extremely high chance' to proc trinkets, it just hits twice. I don't think fishing for procs with GT will show a DPS increase. Trinkets often don't proc until 15+ seconds into the fight, so I don't think it's reliable enough to be losing out on consistent damage. Also not sure about delaying the 2nd BW more than a GCD or two because if you do you're losing your pre-pot during or before the 2nd BW which is pretty significant.

Keeping SrS up is definitely an increase and only requires 1-2 CoS, which you can cast during RF.


I dont think you realize how how important trinket procs are when it comes to using cooldowns. Trinket procs can make the difference between a 200k and 300k opening burst. I know in a lot of cases it is very beneficial to delay cooldowns for trinkets that are about to come off of ICD. I dont know exactly how much raiding you do, but I know all the top hunters would agree that it is better to use cooldowns like dire beast and stampede before bestial wrath in order to save those globals during the actual cooldown. Additionally, using dire beast -> bestial wrath instead of the other way around sets you up for the rest of the fight for those cooldowns to lineup correctly, rather than using dire beast during every single bestial wrath in the fight instead.

Back to the trinket proc question, I doubt an extra 10% damage to that one glaive toss amounts to the chance at increasing your burst during cooldowns by many, many thousands. Also, that extra glaive toss is a very small % of your total damage. Considering the fact that your pet does almost half of your total damage, and glaive toss only does a small percent of the already ~half damage that you yourself do (without your pet), that is very small indeed. A trinket proc however would affect both you and your pet, multiplied by the 10% for yourself and 20% for your pet during bestial wrath.
Edited by Snooperduper on 12/9/2012 11:12 AM PST
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4 Draenei Mage
0
I already said using DB and Stampede outside of BW is probably best, you gain AS's under BW and the delay to BW is not enough to cause a problem.

In your previous post you said, after the first BW fades, you're doing a bunch of crap before using BW. I don't think delaying the second BW more than a few GCDs is going to be worth it, because you'll be losing some of your pre-pot before BW runs out. Once you pre-pot, you have 25 seconds to use it. If chaining BW gives us 20 seconds of BW, then you only have (realistically) ~4 GCDs to waste. With the example you gave, you've already eaten those 4 GCDs before casting BW. So every second you delay your 2nd BW is a second lost of pot + BW. And our pot is the largest and most important CD on the pull, which I'm sure you're aware of.

Regarding fishing for trinket procs, DPS math doesn't really work that way. The optimal way is the way that gives the highest and most consistent DPS. I don't think 2 ticks at trinket procs is worth more DPS than 10% on GT. If you're using GT to try and get a trinket proc, every time that GT does not proc a trinket it is a DPS loss (in this example the loss is whatever the difference is between 2 hits of GT under BW and one AS under BW). If you're trying to proc Relic, your GT has to Crit and hit the 20% proc rate in order for you to see a gain in DPS.

Because of the fact that you only gain when that specific GT procs a trinket, I don't think it's worth it. You're welcome to present the math to prove otherwise, but recognize that 'If it does happen you gain thousands of DPS!' is not math, nor the correct way of approaching this type of comparison. As it stands, with no math to support either case, it's my opinion that 2 ticks of attempted trinket procs is a DPS loss vs. GT under BW.
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90 Orc Hunter
15450
Thank you for this guide. I'm glad to finally starting seeing some sticky's back here.

Also sidenote, I thought it was kind of funny that you had gnomes listed under alliance even though they can't be hunters. But again, thank you for this guide.
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90 Draenei Hunter
13880
12/09/2012 01:28 PMPosted by Cyttorak
Also sidenote, I thought it was kind of funny that you had gnomes listed under alliance even though they can't be hunters


It was the last section I did and honestly just went through the list of all races. I derped. Fixed! Thank you :)
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91 Worgen Hunter
7520
I already said using DB and Stampede outside of BW is probably best, you gain AS's under BW and the delay to BW is not enough to cause a problem.

In your previous post you said, after the first BW fades, you're doing a bunch of crap before using BW. I don't think delaying the second BW more than a few GCDs is going to be worth it, because you'll be losing some of your pre-pot before BW runs out. Once you pre-pot, you have 25 seconds to use it. If chaining BW gives us 20 seconds of BW, then you only have (realistically) ~4 GCDs to waste. With the example you gave, you've already eaten those 4 GCDs before casting BW. So every second you delay your 2nd BW is a second lost of pot + BW. And our pot is the largest and most important CD on the pull, which I'm sure you're aware of.

Regarding fishing for trinket procs, DPS math doesn't really work that way. The optimal way is the way that gives the highest and most consistent DPS. I don't think 2 ticks at trinket procs is worth more DPS than 10% on GT. If you're using GT to try and get a trinket proc, every time that GT does not proc a trinket it is a DPS loss (in this example the loss is whatever the difference is between 2 hits of GT under BW and one AS under BW). If you're trying to proc Relic, your GT has to Crit and hit the 20% proc rate in order for you to see a gain in DPS.

Because of the fact that you only gain when that specific GT procs a trinket, I don't think it's worth it. You're welcome to present the math to prove otherwise, but recognize that 'If it does happen you gain thousands of DPS!' is not math, nor the correct way of approaching this type of comparison. As it stands, with no math to support either case, it's my opinion that 2 ticks of attempted trinket procs is a DPS loss vs. GT under BW.


Well I just did a test of 20 glaive tosses at the target dummy, and ended up getting 16 trinket procs. That doesnt even include scope procs. I dont really want to have to get into what that entails in terms of DPS, but I think it is deserving of a description other than "fishing" for trinket procs, seems pretty damn consistent to me.

So yeah, there are some numbers for you. Test it for yourself if you want, I also talked with the other hunters in my guild and they also glaive toss before the first BW. Take it or leave it.
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90 Orc Hunter
14855
**Note: With the change to Cobra/Steady shot being castable while moving, you will need a /stopcasting macro so you can quickly cancel this when needed. Create a separate keybind and use:
/stopcasting
/stopcasting


Just curious, why do you prefer to have a separate keybind as opposed to having it in your instant shot macros, just because it suppresses autoshots?

And unless you have it bound to like your mouse where you can press it instantly, would the loss of autoshots be outweighted by the speediness of having it in instant macros?

Tried comparing logs but got bored, plus it's hard due to varying specs and kill times :(
Edited by Strlder on 12/9/2012 4:58 PM PST
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4 Draenei Mage
0
12/09/2012 04:50 PMPosted by Snooperduper
Well I just did a test of 20 glaive tosses at the target dummy, and ended up getting 16 trinket procs. That doesnt even include scope procs. I dont really want to have to get into what that entails in terms of DPS, but I think it is deserving of a description other than "fishing" for trinket procs, seems pretty damn consistent to me.


Sorry, 20 isn't a sufficient sample size for pretty much anything.

12/09/2012 04:50 PMPosted by Strlder
Just curious, why do you prefer to have a separate keybind as opposed to having it in your instant shot macros, just because it suppresses autoshots?


Because you can't spam your shot keys if they all contain /stopcasting lines, and spamming is best.
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90 Orc Hunter
14855
12/09/2012 05:14 PMPosted by Magnolia
Because you can't spam your shot keys if they all contain /stopcasting lines, and spamming is best.


Ill try it out of interest and compare my logs to see the difference in autoshots fired.
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4 Draenei Mage
0
12/09/2012 05:19 PMPosted by Strlder
Ill try it out of interest and compare my logs to see the difference in autoshots fired.


It's not about autoshots really. If you're casting CoS and know you're going to KC next, you spam KC while CoS is casting and it ensures that KC goes off as soon as it can. If you have /stopcasting in KC, you can no longer spam. Which means you're either waiting until CoS is done casting (which will cause a KC delay due to latency, and a DPS loss) or you're pressing KC too early which interrupts your almost completed CoS cast.
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90 Orc Hunter
14855
Ill try it out of interest and compare my logs to see the difference in autoshots fired.


It's not about autoshots really. If you're casting CoS and know you're going to KC next, you spam KC while CoS is casting and it ensures that KC goes off as soon as it can. If you have /stopcasting in KC, you can no longer spam. Which means you're either waiting until CoS is done casting (which will cause a KC delay due to latency, and a DPS loss) or you're pressing KC too early which interrupts your almost completed CoS cast.


What if you do not need the focus or to prolong the ssting, wouldnt it be better to cast KC/Explosive and interrupt cobra anyways? But I see what you are saying.

But basically what I am doing is just not using cobra if there is 1 sec or less left on KC/Explosive and I do not need the focus or to prolong the sting, and spam KC/explosive instead. And while obviously I cannot time it perfectly it seems just as good as manually interrupting cast and then spamming KC etc.

Eitherway, food for thought, I can give it ago since i have an empty bind from fox anyways.
Edited by Strlder on 12/9/2012 6:03 PM PST
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4 Draenei Mage
0
12/09/2012 05:59 PMPosted by Strlder
What if you do not need the focus or to prolong the ssting, wouldnt it be better to cast KC/Explosive and interrupt cobra anyways? But I see what you are saying.


Yeah, but then you wouldn't have cast CoS in the first place. If you're going to interrupt CoS for something else, it's better to simply not cast CoS. And all those times where you do need CoS to finish and you want to immediately cast something else, you lose DPS by not spamming (latency etc).
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91 Worgen Hunter
7520
Well I just did a test of 20 glaive tosses at the target dummy, and ended up getting 16 trinket procs. That doesnt even include scope procs. I dont really want to have to get into what that entails in terms of DPS, but I think it is deserving of a description other than "fishing" for trinket procs, seems pretty damn consistent to me.


Sorry, 20 isn't a sufficient sample size for pretty much anything.


How many do you want me to do?

You know what, to be honest I dont think it even matters at this point, you arent hearing any of it and even if I tested it for 1000 glaive tosses you would just doubt the reliability of my testing and my integrity.
Edited by Snooperduper on 12/9/2012 6:17 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10520
How many do you want me to do?

You know what, to be honest I dont think it even matters at this point, you arent hearing any of it and even if I tested it for 1000 glaive tosses you would just doubt the reliability of my testing and my integrity.


It has nothing to do with your testing and everything to do with the extreme accuracy of statistics under a large enough sample size that you can assume that there is no major variance.
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4 Draenei Mage
0
12/09/2012 07:36 PMPosted by Eikocarol
It has nothing to do with your testing and everything to do with the extreme accuracy of statistics under a large enough sample size that you can assume that there is no major variance.


Unfortunately this sentiment is too difficult to understand for most people, which is why I don't even bother trying to explain it.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10520
12/09/2012 07:42 PMPosted by Magnolia
Unfortunately this sentiment is too difficult to understand for most people, which is why I don't even bother trying to explain it.


It's too bad they don't teach statistics in HS its one of the few useful math courses most people will use in their lives.
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4 Draenei Mage
0
12/09/2012 07:46 PMPosted by Eikocarol
Unfortunately this sentiment is too difficult to understand for most people, which is why I don't even bother trying to explain it.


It's too bad they don't teach statistics in HS its one of the few useful math courses most people will use in their lives.


For me it was poker. A lot of concepts from Poker actually apply elsewhere in life, and also in games (SC2, LoL, etc). A solid understanding of variance is pretty key to keeping your sanity in poker. But, in trying to explain some poker concepts to random people, I've learned that things like variance, statistics and sample size are borderline impossible to explain to 95% of people. I don't know why, but that's the way it is.
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The agility required for a socket bonus to be worth taking is 60, not 80. However, do not take a socket bonus if it requires using more than 1 non-delicate gem. Just wanted to add that correction.


well, wouldn't it be about 60 agi per non-red socket, I'd likely think about going for a yellow-blue socket bonus if it was 120 agi.

While currently our sockets and bonuses are a bit meh for a few items, I imagine blizz is going to do something similar to last expansion and have the sockets get better and better in their colors and bonuses.
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91 Worgen Hunter
7520


It's too bad they don't teach statistics in HS its one of the few useful math courses most people will use in their lives.


For me it was poker. A lot of concepts from Poker actually apply elsewhere in life, and also in games (SC2, LoL, etc). A solid understanding of variance is pretty key to keeping your sanity in poker. But, in trying to explain some poker concepts to random people, I've learned that things like variance, statistics and sample size are borderline impossible to explain to 95% of people. I don't know why, but that's the way it is.


My problem is you arent even considering the validity of my option. Just because you know one number and dont know the other doesnt mean you need to automatically assume that the known number is correct. Now, how do you want me to test this sort of thing?

And what's with having to resort to insults?
Edited by Snooperduper on 12/9/2012 8:33 PM PST
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4 Draenei Mage
0
12/09/2012 08:31 PMPosted by Snooperduper
My problem is you arent even considering the validity of my option. Just because you know one number and dont know the other doesnt mean you need to automatically assume that the known number is correct. Now, how do you want me to test this sort of thing?


Neither of us have the math to support either side of the argument, and I stated my opinion and why I think that way above. We don't agree, and because neither side can prevent facts to contradict the other (a mathematician I am not), there's not really anything more to discuss.

Testing how often GT procs a trinket is only a small part of the equation, and unless you want to go through the effort of figuring out the rest of it (which would require a large amount of custom sims), it's pretty pointless to carry out.

EDIT: Nobody insulted you. Let's keep this thread on topic. If you want to give an in depth analysis of Hunter openers, start a new thread.
Edited by Magnolia on 12/9/2012 8:40 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
10780
12/09/2012 09:52 AMPosted by Magnolia
GT doesn't 'have an extremely high chance' to proc trinkets, it just hits twice.


...giving it double the chance to proc trinkets? I think it'd be fair to call double the chance extremely high. On any cleave or aoe fight it can be a quadruple or higher chance too... but, as you already said, fishing for procs during an important phase of our dps flow is probably not always beneficial.

This is, of course, assuming the trinkets aren't on ICD.

Let's keep this thread on topic. If you want to give an in depth analysis of Hunter openers, start a new thread.


I would actually say this is the perfect place for this; it is an overall hunter dps guide, so mentioning the opener and discussing it is not by any means off topic.

12/09/2012 06:07 PMPosted by Snooperduper


Sorry, 20 isn't a sufficient sample size for pretty much anything.


How many do you want me to do?

You know what, to be honest I dont think it even matters at this point, you arent hearing any of it and even if I tested it for 1000 glaive tosses you would just doubt the reliability of my testing and my integrity.


Your autoshot may have triggered the trinkets too, just saying. It is almost impossible to track the actual impact of what you are suggesting... far too many variables that cannot be considered in a static environment, much less a dynamic raid setting.

I think the actual issue is that chances are, the trinkets will proc ANYWAYS (they almost always proc for me in the first few shots), or they will already be on ICD (from the previous BW since our opener is looped).
Edited by Stalkings on 12/9/2012 10:49 PM PST
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