How much damage in a deep is acceptable?

90 Human Paladin
14125

I don't like the idea of putting more focus on frost bolt. It's hard enough to get anything off with a melee class training you, so why make it even more difficult?

It's also very difficult for a melee to get on a Mage, or anything really as a Frost Mage is just an aura of cc in a battle field. I know in my PvP teams that when we see a Mage we go, "oh crap, there's a Mage" cause if we don't get on the Mage then it'll just free cast. On the other hand, getting on one is a pain cause you simply can't.

And increasing FB's damage, or reducing the cast time would just make it harder to balance frost in PvE. If your solution is "who cares if frost is bad in PvE," then just shut up. No spec should be broken in PvE as a means of solving a PvP issue.

Most suggestions don't effect PvE damage at all. Look at Retribution Paladins, if you have one in the raid. Pull up Skada or Recount, and check the abilities used to do damage. I guarantee you that nearly all the abilities are equal on damage. Good amount of it is from a dot called Censure.

In a situation like this it's best to move damage to dots. Like if Frost Bomb explodes it does 30% of it's damage done to enemies hit as damage over 10 seconds. We can call it "Frosty" for lack of imagination.

This in fact does a few things for Frost.

1. Lowers the burst in PvP but has no effect on raid dps.
2. Allows a Magic debuff to be removable in PvP.
3. Could even increase sustained dps in PvE, cause now the burst is gone.

See that, balanced. Of course you won't see huge numbers when you crit, but no more complaints on forums either.
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90 Human Paladin
14125

What would differentiate it from roots then? Seems very lackluster to just have a button that stuns targets, but only when they're rooted.


You don't say? An instant cast root doesn't sound so bad really. Except that you can't perform any actions as a player.
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1 Draenei Hunter
0
PvE is about a lot more than single-target unfreezable bosses these days. AOE packs and some single spawns that need to be killed quickly can often be frozen or at least stunned (in which case DF will work on them). Making it not benefit from Mastery would be pretty awful in PvE.

PvP Power is there to differentiate spells in PvE and PvP. I think it could be used to much greater effect in ways like this.

95% of adds are immune to roots, the ones that aren't are trivial as is. Removing bomb spells from Frost Mastery is the perfect fix.
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90 Draenei Shaman
7730
It's also very difficult for a melee to get on a Mage, or anything really as a Frost Mage is just an aura of cc in a battle field. I know in my PvP teams that when we see a Mage we go, "oh crap, there's a Mage" cause if we don't get on the Mage then it'll just free cast. On the other hand, getting on one is a pain cause you simply can't.


getting uptime on a mage is actually not that difficult.

like Affx stated earlier frost mages have less now than they've had before, and melee now, have more than theyve had before.

12/07/2012 01:23 PMPosted by Talandirlol
Removing bomb spells from Frost Mastery is the perfect fix.


im glad you support my idea, but it isnt perfect by far. neither is lhivera's. but both ideas are better than most, and honestly, i think lhiv's idea is the best so far.
Edited by Jkspiritlink on 12/7/2012 1:25 PM PST
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
PvE is about a lot more than single-target unfreezable bosses these days. AOE packs and some single spawns that need to be killed quickly can often be frozen or at least stunned (in which case DF will work on them). Making it not benefit from Mastery would be pretty awful in PvE.

PvP Power is there to differentiate spells in PvE and PvP. I think it could be used to much greater effect in ways like this.

95% of adds are immune to roots, the ones that aren't are trivial as is. Removing bomb spells from Frost Mastery is the perfect fix.


I've found a surprising number of things that I can deep freeze in PvE. And of course in things like challenge modes, being able to kill trash quickly is very important. For reasons like these, taking these abilities off of Frostburn is a bad idea. Fixes should be focused purely on effects and stats that are truly exclusive to PvP.
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90 Draenei Shaman
7730
The only thing against your idea lhiv, is that devs dont like giving abilities separate damages or effects for pvp and pve.

like colossus smash granting 100% ArPen in pve and significantly less in pvp. they've done it before, and theres precedent of it working, but blizzard has made tons of posts about how they dont like doing it.
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100 Human Mage
14830

What would differentiate it from roots then? Seems very lackluster to just have a button that stuns targets, but only when they're rooted.


You don't say? An instant cast root doesn't sound so bad really. Except that you can't perform any actions as a player.

Same logic could be applied to hand of justice. But that's neither here nor there nor relevant to the discussion in any way.
Edited by Mumrit on 12/7/2012 1:55 PM PST
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
The only thing against your idea lhiv, is that devs dont like giving abilities separate damages or effects for pvp and pve.

like colossus smash granting 100% ArPen in pve and significantly less in pvp. they've done it before, and theres precedent of it working, but blizzard has made tons of posts about how they dont like doing it.


I think the difference here is that the effect is attached to a glyph. It's not a "this ability works differently if you're attacking a player" difference, it's a "this ability works differently if you use this glyph" difference, with the modification clearly described.

If you're referring to the PvP Power Coefficient idea I've posted elsewhere, I think that is also different. Rather than being an arbitrary change to the rules when you move from one environment to the other, it defines a single consistent rule — abiliities apply a coefficient to PvP Power. The rule is irrelevant in PvE, but it doesn't change. And it's easily understandable, since it's essentially identical to the mechanic that's already in place for Spell Power.
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90 Human Paladin
14125


I've found a surprising number of things that I can deep freeze in PvE. And of course in things like challenge modes, being able to kill trash quickly is very important. For reasons like these, taking these abilities off of Frostburn is a bad idea. Fixes should be focused purely on effects and stats that are truly exclusive to PvP.

Oh nice, so can Retribution Paladins get Judgements to do double damage on stunned targets? It was like that long ago for Paladins. Would certainly help with clearing trash in challenge modes.
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
Dunno! Only way to find out for sure is to try. The one that pops into mind off the top of my head is the most common spawn in Will of the Emp. Been a couple weeks, but pretty sure I remember that correctly. And a ton of trash in heroics and so, presumably, in challenge modes is susceptible (almost matters more there).
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90 Human Mage
6340
This is how I kill someone in a Deep.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdAmOllMjMk
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90 Blood Elf Mage
4560
It's now a 4-sec stun window, so presumably that'd translate to ~48% for you.

GC answered a tweet last night about frost bomb and the Fire Blast glyph, saying that the glyph is something they're looking at — the risk of changing it being that it could result in frost bomb never dealing damage in PvP. I don't really have a comment on that, just putting it out there for those who didn't see it.

If they make Frost Bomb go off when its dispelled that would be fine, but with that change alone we'd lose probably 50% of our burst potential. It would ruin the class as it stands now.

But I kind of hope they remove the glyph. I'd rather this class flounder at the bottom for a while than continue the binary "get you bomb burst off or not" playstyle we're forced in to right now. It's really boring.
Edited by Affx on 12/7/2012 3:12 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Mage
4560
The problem isn't that deep freeze is too powerful, it's that upwards of 80% of our damage is going to come from the burst damage done inside of a deep freeze. If you want to balance mages, you need to shift the damage around a bit.

I don't like the idea of putting more focus on frost bolt. It's hard enough to get anything off with a melee class training you, so why make it even more difficult? And increasing FB's damage, or reducing the cast time would just make it harder to balance frost in PvE. If your solution is "who cares if frost is bad in PvE," then just shut up. No spec should be broken in PvE as a means of solving a PvP issue.

They could remove the Fireblast glyph and change CoC glyph to give it the functionality of Improved Cone of Cold - 4 second root on its own DR. No special rules about Frost Bomb's damage from mastery/PvP power. Takes a lot of the focus away from Frost Bomb -> DF alter time burst. Rewards casting.

Frost Bomb in PvP would be used as a way to backload damage at a time when you know there's no dispels coming. Alternatively, it opens up different talent choices: possibility of running a cleave spec of Ice Lance glyph + living bomb.

This might require that Frostbolt gets some sort of extra bonus from shatter, since it still doesn't hit hard enough to be worth casting even if we can cast it. I don't think this would have a significant impact on PvE.

Mages don't like their success relying on creating room with limited tools, and exploding people in 4 seconds. Our opponents don't like it either. Your statements about 80% of our damage coming within DF are too true, it's too binary.

I say any damage done should break the Deep. And I'm not saying this because Repentance does the same thing as a CC. Totally unrelated. But yea, you so much as sneeze on the person with Deep freeze they should be out of it.

Repentance is an incapacitate, not a stun. We already have a spell that causes shatter and breaks on damage, it's called Frost Nova.
Edited by Affx on 12/7/2012 3:11 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9330
It seems like most people are incapable of discussing frost mages rationally.

Anyways, we (mage + teammates) should probably be able to reduce the enemy to 20% health in the deep and finish him off outside of it, considering the scenario above. That seems pretty reasonable.

Frost is super boring, and even though I want to actually be good before I go off in a disgusted huff, I'm thinking of playing enhance instead =/

I'm a poor writer.
Edited by Swampdonkeys on 12/8/2012 11:33 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Why not make the Fire Blast glyph cause Frost Bomb to deal its damage over time? Say, 3-6 seconds? Same damage, computed at the time of detonation so it takes proper advantage of mastery and shatter, but if manually detonated it's a short DoT instead of a huge burstsplosion.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
12485
12/07/2012 09:02 AMPosted by Stierzorn
This avoids perhaps the biggest issue: Stuns need a damage cap to break


Wouldn't solve mage burst *at all* considering the vast majority of our burst all hits in an instant anyway.
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
12/07/2012 03:10 PMPosted by Affx
They could remove the Fireblast glyph and change CoC glyph to give it the functionality of Improved Cone of Cold - 4 second root on its own DR.


Purely from a solo PvE perspective, I would take that glyph in a hot second. In fact, I mentioned in beta that I would take that glyph even if it disabled Frost Nova. CoC freeze is the one thing I miss most of all from Cata Frost.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
12/07/2012 05:52 PMPosted by Krinu
Why not make the Fire Blast glyph cause Frost Bomb to deal its damage over time? Say, 3-6 seconds? Same damage, computed at the time of detonation so it takes proper advantage of mastery and shatter, but if manually detonated it's a short DoT instead of a huge burstsplosion.


I considered that possibility as well. Cast Fire Blast, Frost Bomb ticks once instantly for 20% damage, and four more times over the next four seconds (reduced by haste) for 20% each tick.

Although frankly, I expect this would mean nobody would use the glyph with Frost Bomb.

________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium
Edited by Lhivera on 12/7/2012 7:57 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9330
12/07/2012 07:55 PMPosted by Lhivera
They could remove the Fireblast glyph and change CoC glyph to give it the functionality of Improved Cone of Cold - 4 second root on its own DR.


Purely from a solo PvE perspective, I would take that glyph in a hot second. In fact, I mentioned in beta that I would take that glyph even if it disabled Frost Nova. CoC freeze is the one thing I miss most of all from Cata Frost.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium


Yeah.
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1 Draenei Hunter
0
12/07/2012 03:10 PMPosted by Affx
They could remove the Fireblast glyph and change CoC glyph to give it the functionality of Improved Cone of Cold - 4 second root on its own DR.

Dispels changed. This would not be balanced at all anymore.

I don't like the idea of the Fire Blast making Frost Bomb a DoT. Although it sounds really nice and it fixes the Bombs on Novas issue if the DoT does near full damage in a Deep you didn't fix the issue of dying in a Deep. It's unfortunate that this sounds like just the change Blizzard would make. Even with a longer DoT every Mage would simply follow Deep with imp CS on healers like they already do.
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