How much damage in a deep is acceptable?

90 Blood Elf Mage
4560
That is what they intentionally moved away from. Whatever you come up with can't hurt PVE

They intentionally moved away from massive control + consistent damage, towards little control + tons of burst damage. Now they nerfed the tons of burst damage. What's frost good for, now?

Honestly we'd be fine if Arms & Feral didn't have the mobility that they do. But with all the new ways to break snares and roots, and Mages going from three nova DR categories down to one, we have no means to create space against melee, and now no means to do significant enough instant cast burst during deep to get kills. I'm not sure what they intend our playstyle to be exactly.

As far as I can tell (haven't played arenas since the change went live), the only realistic way to kill someone now is if they are a solo dispelling healer. Bomb -> Imp CS -> Pet freeze shatter -> DF -> bomb explodes in DF shatter. I suppose that means we'll be pairing with Rogues again, in order to maximize healer training effectiveness? I doubt that's what they intend, but it appears to be our best strategy with our current toolset.
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90 Draenei Shaman
7730
Honestly we'd be fine if Arms & Feral didn't have the mobility that they do


agreed and hopefully this change brings out some of those issues.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
4560
Wouldn't that defeat the point of the nerf? The nerf seems intended to make it easier for opposing players to counter your burst during deep.

I am not saying I agree or disagree with the change. My point is if they made it 3secs then it goes back to being very easy to pull the burst off.

Harder to pull off than it was pre-hotfix, easier than it is post-hotfix. That solution is partway in between. It's still dispellable, it gives players and their teammates 2 or 3 GCDs to react. Doesn't devolve Mage gameplay in to a game of 'train the healer in an imp CS -> DF'. It's still a dumb fix, because it still makes us only capable of doing significant damage when a healer is incapable of controlling their character, but at least it puts our burst window within a reasonable CC rotation duration.

The change, as-is, will just make all Mages go Arcane for spellsteal spam, or Fire for inferno blast bomb detonation. It's plainly not a good solution (and I realize you said you're not necessarily in favor of it, not accusing you of saying otherwise).
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90 Blood Elf Mage
4560
Honestly we'd be fine if Arms & Feral didn't have the mobility that they do


agreed and hopefully this change brings out some of those issues.

I actually already kind of disagree with that statement - we'd still be in a place where the only way to do meaningful damage was while the healer had no control over their character. I think that's bad design and I maintain that if they insist that the glyph is bad for the game, Bomb either needs to be undispellable or its countdown must be the same or less than Deep Freeze's duration.
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80 Human Priest
3225
Honestly we'd be fine if Arms & Feral didn't have the mobility that they do


Well this is a problem that is plaguing melee in general. Arms and Feral mobility was buffed while mage positional control was nerfed to the lowest point probably since vanilla. It's created a situation where rogues, and monks are pretty much crap because they do not compare to the ridiculous uptime those two classes can reach.

Ferals are so overpowered currently but are flying under the radar because your average player can't comprehend why they are. However everyone can relate to "Omg Frost Bomb hit me for bazillion!".

It's like Aura of Enfeeblement. It was probably the most broken ability the game has seen in ages but there was almost no complaints about it. Demo didn't even start getting complaints until people watched how good it was in the tournament.

The average forum player that has never played past 1800, can't see or wrap their mind around big picture. As I said in my other post the reason that Deep seems so OP is because that is really the only time something is going to die by a mage. The ability to produce multiple shatters to kill people was stripped away.

However welcome to being a DK. Player base is going to hate you regardless of if the things they complain about are long gone.
Edited by Primiez on 12/12/2012 10:36 AM PST
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90 Orc Warlock
16695
12/07/2012 07:39 AMPosted by Swampdonkeys
How much damage is acceptable-


How much health do you have? That's the acceptable number since stuns don't have a damage cap.
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1 Gnome Priest
0
Affx, I think your predictions that Frost will have problems if Frost Bomb is nerfed are a little overblown. Look at the other casting specs: Shadow Priests, Elemental, Boomkins, Warlocks, Fire, and Arcane.

Shadow Priests are in a good spot.
Elemental is not viable.
Boomkin is not viable.
Destruction and Demonology are viable but only in the hands of exceptional players.
Affliction is not viable.
Fire is viable but only in the hands of exceptional players.
Arcane is not viable.

I'll go out on a limb and predict that the 20% Frost Bomb nerf that went live won't hurt Frost Mages too much, and they will still be better than all the above specs except Shadow Priests.

Giving Frost Mages any more control is a very bad idea in my opinion. Mages have too much control relative to the other casting classes. Your concerns about Warriors and Ferals do not take into account that these specs are designed to be very mobile, and have very little in the way of ranged damage.

Frost lost a lot of control, but a lot else has happened since the expansion. Dispels are on an 8 second cooldown, a lot of specs lost dispel protection, and interrupts have been nerfed.

When 5.2 PTR comes up, roll up an Elemental Shaman and a Boomkin premade and give them a spin. They are in much worse shape.
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