Ghostcrawler's opinion on the totem change.

90 Draenei Shaman
16690
12/09/2012 01:29 PMPosted by Jkspiritlink
SLTs power was never in the damage reduction, but in the health redistribution which happened instantly. It didn't matter if you turned to it and took the GCD to kill it, because it had already done its job with the tick-upon-drop and any extra pressure it can take off of the shamans team at that point is gravy.


SLT doesnt redistribute instantly and its definitely possible to kill it before the redistribution happens.


It does beyond a shadow of a doubt tick upon drop. I'm playing with it in game testing that right now just because you said this and I had a sliver of doubt left >.> It is INSTANT.

Also, Ashunera wins the thread.
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50 Human Priest
14170
By the time most totems are able to be targeted and killed, they've provided most of their benefit. The act of dropping a totem has become more and more powerful as time has went by with various changes. It was impossible to counter the first ~2 ticks of Healing Tide and hard to counter a lot of the rest. It was impossible to counter the health evening effect of SLT. Removing all roots and snares (dropping Windwalk) is far more valuable than making people immune to them for 6 seconds after, despite still being a powerful effect. The root (initial drop effect) of Earthgrab is far more powerful than the persistent snare effect. SBT obviously follows that model as well.

The problematic totems were Healing Tide and Spirit Link, the first being weak for Enhance and Elemental, and the second not being available to them at all, so I certainly agree with silence effects working on totems for all specs being a little misguided. Enhance and Elemental get caught in the crossfire of nerfs aimed at Restoration a little too often.

The real problem here is the role of silence effects. They are intended to prevent spell casts, namely instant cast spells, but don't require any measure of skill to make very effective use of because they are largely instant themselves, have no meaningful resource costs, and are off the GCD. And Blizzard loves to combine "Powerful" with "Instant Cast" because it appeals to the mindless masses despite the fact that the risk vs. reward and opportunity cost paradigm is largely ignored for them (and a handful of other CC effects).

The enemy here isn't silences affecting totem casts, nor is Ghostcrawler "an idiot". Short term, it was a necessary nerf to Restoration, required to fit them into their current PvP design. The real enemy is silencing effects themselves... and the overall PvP design.


Except that's not true. Most totems don't provide most their benefits up front. SLT, tremor and SBT do. The rest sit there and do their thing for a while including HST and HTT. If people don't turn to kill them quickly, that's their fault. I have my nameplates set up to see the very important totems that need to be killed instantly. Its not hard.

I don't disagree that blanket silences are antithesis of skill (and why are they longer duration than interrupts?!?!). I still don't understand what advantages totems give shaman now. They are only negatives when compared to self-buffs/abilities.


12/09/2012 09:51 PMPosted by Gistwiki
It does beyond a shadow of a doubt tick upon drop. I'm playing with it in game testing that right now just because you said this and I had a sliver of doubt left >.> It is INSTANT.


Its not. It takes one second to tick.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16690
Its not. It takes one second to tick.


I am currently unable to reproduce said behavior ingame. I'm getting redistributions upon drop and every second afterwards.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
13920
It's been instant ever since it was implemented =/
Edited by Chillbros on 12/9/2012 10:18 PM PST
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50 Human Priest
14170
12/09/2012 10:18 PMPosted by Chillbros
It's been instant ever since it was implemented =/


100% false. All through cata (after it was added) it took a second to tick.
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90 Orc Shaman
17975
12/09/2012 09:51 PMPosted by Gistwiki


SLT doesnt redistribute instantly and its definitely possible to kill it before the redistribution happens.


It does beyond a shadow of a doubt tick upon drop. I'm playing with it in game testing that right now just because you said this and I had a sliver of doubt left >.> It is INSTANT.


For the record a few top rated PvP players most notably an awesome warlock has been able to kill SLT before any effect is applied.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16690


It does beyond a shadow of a doubt tick upon drop. I'm playing with it in game testing that right now just because you said this and I had a sliver of doubt left >.> It is INSTANT.


For the record a few top rated PvP players most notably an awesome warlock has been able to kill SLT before any effect is applied.


There a video of it out there? I can't get any delay on my SLT ticks on live as it is >.>
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50 Human Priest
14170
12/09/2012 11:24 PMPosted by Gistwiki
There a video of it out there? I can't get any delay on my SLT ticks on live as it is >.>


I know I've destroyed them in RBGs in Cata before it could tick and I've had mine destroyed in the arena before it could tick.
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100 Draenei Shaman
17680
SLT has been instant since it was implemented. Immediately on drop health redistributes. It has always been this way, and has never not worked. If it's not evening health, your friend is failing to be inside its radius.

Windwalk
Earthgrab
Tremor
Grounding
Spirit Link
Stone Bulwark
... all provide substantial benefit instantly on being dropped.

Healing Tide has a lot of health and is very hard to kill before it heals several times. Its first tick is also immediate and cannot be prevented.
Healing Stream works the same way, first tick cannot be prevented.
Elemental totems are also hard to kill. You could easily summon a Primal Earth Elemental and stun someone with it before the totem could be killed.
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50 Human Priest
14170
SLT has been instant since it was implemented. Immediately on drop health redistributes. It has always been this way, and has never not worked. If it's not evening health, your friend is failing to be inside its radius.


You are incorrect. It was not instant in Cata. It took slightly less than a second to redistribute health. I am 100% certain of this. Its not much of a delay but it was there. I can't really blame people for not noticing it because of the size of the delay. You had to really pay attention to notice it.

Another instance of the delay was someone dying in a raid (BoT I think) while being well within the radius with the totem down. I put down the totem as I saw them very low on health, it did the animation and they still died.


Windwalk
Earthgrab
Tremor
Grounding
Spirit Link
Stone Bulwark
... all provide substantial benefit instantly on being dropped.


Earthgrab and windwalk are mutually exclusive so your list is incorrect. Second, that's not even half our totems. Its also worth mentioning that windwalk and stone bulwark are not always chosen by PvPers or even chosen often.

Totems are the defining characteristic of shaman and the totem mechanic now provides zero benefit. Its only a negative aspect to the game now. That's just poor design. I would be okay with the new changes if totems had some positive aspect to them over self-buffs/abilities. Can anybody think of a single thing that totems (the mechanic) have over self-buffs/abilities? I can't think of one reason why I would choose totems.
Edited by Niktesla on 12/10/2012 12:57 AM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
5790
hahaha and you're a pally saying that.... gtfo dude
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100 Draenei Shaman
17680
You are incorrect. It was not instant in Cata. It took slightly less than a second to redistribute health. I am 100% certain of this. Its not much of a delay but it was there. I can't really blame people for not noticing it because of the size of the delay. You had to really pay attention to notice it.

Another instance of the delay was someone dying in a raid (BoT I think) while being well within the radius with the totem down. I put down the totem as I saw them very low on health, it did the animation and they still died.

You're talking about internet latency......... that's the only delay there ever was. SLT, for all intents and purposes, does not and never did have a delay on its effect. What you're experiencing is a part of all abilities in all online games.

Earthgrab and windwalk are mutually exclusive so your list is incorrect. Second, that's not even half our totems. Its also worth mentioning that windwalk and stone bulwark are not always chosen by PvPers or even chosen often.

Totems are the defining characteristic of shaman and the totem mechanic now provides zero benefit. Its only a negative aspect to the game now. That's just poor design. I would be okay with the new changes if totems had some positive aspect to them over self-buffs/abilities. Can anybody think of a single thing that totems (the mechanic) have over self-buffs/abilities? I can't think of one reason why I would choose totems.

Your persistent unquenchable negativity is disturbing. All I've ever seen you do is complain about Shamans. Even though the class is in the best shape it's ever been in, you still complain about how bad the class has it.

Nothing about my list is "incorrect". I listed totems that have a powerful initial impact. Whether you choose certain talents or not is irrelevant, if you specifically don't choose totem talents then this nerf doesn't affect you as much as it does those who do.

Earthbind/Earthgrab
Earth Elemental
Tremor
Stone Bulwark

Searing
Magma
Fire Elemental

Stormlash
Spirit Link
Grounding
Windwalk

Capacitor

Healing Tide
Mana Tide
Healing Stream

I mentioned 8/15 totems, by the way, that's over half of them. If people are spending a lot of time killing your Magma/Searing totems, they are wasting their time and giving you the advantage.

I thought the advantages of totems were that you couldn't be dispelled of their buffs.

But now that they provide more utility than buffs that advantage is gone.

Now it just seems more annoying and easier for your enemies to know what you're doing.
The thing about totems that people just don't seem to get is that they give us the advantage in combat when used properly. Not only does X totem provide a powerful effect, it forces your enemy to make a decision every time you drop one. "Do I switch targets and kill it?" If the answer is yes, you just took pressure off yourself or your allies which is a good thing on its own. If the answer is no, you have a powerful effect running that can give you the advantage in a much more direct or obvious way. Forcing your enemy to make a decision with each totem drop means they very well may make the wrong decision and put you at an advantage. Even if they always choose correctly, the act of dropping a totem will take less time (1s GCD) than it will for an opponent to target and kill it (300 ms minimum to notice its existence, 500 ms to acquire the totem as a target, 1-1.5s GCD to kill it).

The value of totems is highly underrated, and in many cases, completely misunderstood.
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50 Human Priest
14170
You're talking about internet latency......... that's the only delay there ever was. SLT, for all intents and purposes, does not and never did have a delay on its effect. What you're experiencing is a part of all abilities in all online games.


So you agree there is a delay sometimes for SLT then?



Your persistent unquenchable negativity is disturbing. All I've ever seen you do is complain about Shamans. Even though the class is in the best shape it's ever been in, you still complain about how bad the class has it.


If you don't like it, don't read it. This is the forums. You know exactly what you will find here. Don't act surprised that people are negative. This is one of the major purposes of the forums. If you don't like that then GTFO.



Nothing about my list is "incorrect". I listed totems that have a powerful initial impact. Whether you choose certain talents or not is irrelevant, if you specifically don't choose totem talents then this nerf doesn't affect you as much as it does those who do.


Your list has a major flaw. You listed two totems that can't be in the shaman's spellbook at the same time. So yes, your list is incorrect. Also, the talents you list are not all likely candidates for PvP. This is a PvP discussion and it should remain realistic. You are just skewing reality by listing off totems that most likely won't be used in PvP.



I mentioned 8/15 totems, by the way, that's over half of them. If people are spending a lot of time killing your Magma/Searing totems, they are wasting their time and giving you the advantage.


Once again, you list totems that can't be in the shaman's spellbook simultaneously. Its an easy concept to grasp. You should really stop posting if you can't understand that. Your list has mistakes. Your information is wrong.



The thing about totems that people just don't seem to get is that they give us the advantage in combat when used properly. Not only does X totem provide a powerful effect, it forces your enemy to make a decision every time you drop one. "Do I switch targets and kill it?" If the answer is yes, you just took pressure off yourself or your allies which is a good thing on its own. If the answer is no, you have a powerful effect running that can give you the advantage in a much more direct or obvious way. Forcing your enemy to make a decision with each totem drop means they very well may make the wrong decision and put you at an advantage. Even if they always choose correctly, the act of dropping a totem will take less time (1s GCD) than it will for an opponent to target and kill it (300 ms minimum to notice its existence, 500 ms to acquire the totem as a target, 1-1.5s GCD to kill it).


You don't understand what an advantage is. An advantage is needing a certain spell to get rid of someone's self-buff (purge, dispel, etc). Everybody (including level 1 characters) can dispel our totems with a simple auto-attack. That is a huge disadvantage. Also, its usually healers that kill totems, not the DPS pursing the shaman in my experiences. The healers killing totems provides no break in pressure. I think you are just playing bad players if totems are giving you some sort of advantage.



12/10/2012 03:06 AMPosted by Ashunera
The value of totems is highly underrated, and in many cases, completely misunderstood.


I think you misunderstand how easy it is for a healer to just totem stomp. You overrate totems, completely.



I thought the advantages of totems were that you couldn't be dispelled of their buffs.


This was always a disadvantage of totems. Everybody could dispel our buffs, self or otherwise. The trade-off was that you could use them while interrupted or silenced. That trade-off is gone and now the totem mechanic brings nothing positive to shaman.
Edited by Niktesla on 12/10/2012 4:33 AM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
7515
Ghostcrawler is a moron! Totems with 5hp were never OP. in a 2's match against a terrible balance Druid even he had no problem killing my cap totem the second after it was dropped, well before the 5 sec charge time. And when I play any other class I know that the second HTT or HST are dropped to tab target and one shot it.
If you really think totems deserved to be locked out but any unskilled player that can just blanket silence us and own us before the 6 sec silence is off then fine. Give shamans wind shear the same blanket silence and make it so Pallys can't bubble, Druids can't shape shift and run away, mages can't blink or ice barrier, dks can't ams, and every other defensive CD in the game also suffers from the same blanket silence. Then we can play the game the way the idiots on the dev team want it to be played. Run in blanket silence and own before anyone else can cast a spell or pop a cd. Then arena matches can last 10 secs, every one with a fast button finger wins and the game no longer requires any skill or thought process.
Time to role a Mage so I can just smash my face into the keyboard and win. Congrats GC! You win. Idiot!
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12855
Even if SLT and HTT were the problem to warrent this nerf no rsham in their right mind would stack cooldowns unless they were getting tunneled start to finish; which, in its own right, makes for a stupid arguement.

A comp that doesnt have to peel off one target should never be the comparison for why an ability is "too strong"

Even if what I stated isnt the case, which it is, they could have put the 2 totems on a shared cd of 30 secs and resolved the concerns with much better outcomes.

From my experience with this nerf thus far it is apparent that any class with a blanket silence has went full retard and puts it on me on cd. Sounds stupid right? But theres no reason not to when you can follow it with any type of cc and essentially force a trinket in the first minute of any game.

Any one that actually thinks totems having 5hp or even 2 shottable by any healer in game isnt a huge drawback in itself should take a hike. Argueing that this nerf actually balanced rsham, and by extension our dps specs, is dense at best.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12855
Oh and though SLT is the best cd utilized in pvp it doesnt negate the fact that it has two huge drawbacks.

One is positioning. Knowing when to stack isnt the same as being able to stack to utilize it especially with the 8 sec cd on dispel and 1 cd on windwalk (if you have it).

The other is F I V E H E A L T H P O I N T S

shoot theres comps that hard counter the thing as well. Anyone heard of any type of dot comps or smoke bomb? Crazy I know....
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81 Orc Shaman
3130
Some overlooked things I see from a lot of these "SILENCES RUIN SHAMANS" qq threads.

At some point (I dont know when exactly) Blizz changed astral shift to be usable while locked out and silenced.

Also the resto set bonus breaks silences.

On topic...

I have no issue with instant cc if it can be countered instantly. There are honestly a lot of examples of this in the game. The problem comes from really low cd cc *cough* blood fear. Medium range cc is great because it is always shorter than your ability to counter it meaning a game rewards offensive play. Games would be crazy long and boring if every cc could be countered, but they shouldnt be unavoidable every 10 seconds either.

The problem with HTT and SLT was that you could save someone else while cc'd. A cc on the healer should apply preasure to the dps. Healers, as I mentioned have plenty of ways to get out of cc but it should be a 2 step process. Break the cc and then negate pressure. Not do it all instantly and shamans were the only class that could do that.

Legitimately using a HTT or HST or even a grounding totem for the most part wont save a dps shaman. There is just not enough survivability. Hopefully this will be adressed in the future, but this change didnt MAKE dps shaman bad. They already were. I get it that it's viewed as more nerfs to specs that didnt need it, but even without the nerfs dps shaman are still not in a good spot.

@Niktesla a healer isnt going to destroy a HTT totem or mana tide totem in any reasonable amount of time. Healing stream sure but healing stream totem is on a 30 second cd, and does relatively minor healing. The other totems give a majority of their benifit upfront just as Ashunera is saying.
Edited by Bipst on 12/10/2012 8:11 AM PST
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90 Orc Shaman
13750
I'd have done something like add a cast time to SLT first, since SLT seems to be the core of the problem. If people had advance notice it was coming, then it would be possible to prevent or react to it better.

I would have also taken a long hard look at the Totemic Restoration talent. Since the first tick of SLT is the problem and everything after it has been described as "gravy," I'd have made a change to exempt SLT from Totemic Restoration (thus making sure it couldn't be dropped more than usual) or I'd have used 5.1 as the opportunity to get rid of that entire damned talent tier.

What I hate is Enhancement and Elemental getting hit by Restoration-targeted nerfs. If the developers can't stop doing that, then the Shaman class needs a radical redesign because nothing they've done up to this point to help prevent that has succeeded.
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