25H Empress Adds - Just getting wrecked

90 Pandaren Monk
7915
I'm tanking one side of Windblades on 25H Empress and some attempts I'm just getting wrecked. I switched up to a mastery build for this fight after trying haste and it seems to of worked a bit better, but I'm still getting just wrecked. Most of the attempts I've gone into the phase with a good 40-50s shuffle duration up and I've been getting pain suppressions leading into the phase for the inital pull of them then I'm kiting back to where I'm tanking them. But from there, I'm just bascially chaining my cooldowns to try and live, but once I'm out of cooldowns I'm !@#$ed basically. I've also been using Xuen there so he can take one off me and that helps a bit, but whenever I have 3 on me I'm basically %^-*ed more or less. I am getting symbiosis from the bear as well by the way.

Even calling out for external cooldowns I'm still dying. I'm guessing I need to maybe time my cooldowns better maybe so I get more use out of them, but any advice would be helpful at this point.

Here's the log from Thursday with this fight. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-4w0dwyh8akknnl7m/
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
I notice your other tank is using grasp, do stuns no longer work on heroic, or have you guys just not tried?

May be as simple as adding stuns into your rotation of tank/healer cd's.

I've not seen heroic yet, though, so I can't be sure if that's any help or not.
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90 Pandaren Monk
7915
I was using Leg Sweep on them about halfway to the point where I'm tanking them to lessen some of the damage while I was kiting them back. And the bear would sometimes taunt one over to him if I was dipping real low, but I've never heard of grasp o.o. Another thing that's getting me is I'll sometimes get globaled and just die in 1 shot and I haven't been able to see what is doing that to me in the logs.
Edited by Bryce on 12/8/2012 9:13 PM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
Oh, sorry, I guess the DK you had in there for part of it isn't one of your usual tanks lol.

But yeah, start by trying to work group stuns into your tank/healer cd rotations. Check your death logs immediately (in game combat log even) to see what you're getting gibbed by, I'm guessing it's just a few melee hits at once.
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90 Orc Monk
13815
I've noticed having similar issues being pounded on Will heroic, if our avoidance RNG doesn't work out it's game over on most heroic encounters. Makes it necessary to have rotational stuns and anything else you can get. It seems like we're pretty inferior to other tanks in these cases, being RNG dependent and all.
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90 Pandaren Monk
7915
I'm trying to figure something out to stop it for tonight and I'm coming up with nothing I'm not already trying. I'm getting stuns from dps on the adds, I'm stunning them, etc. Just can't really do much if I get globaled.
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90 Orc Monk
13815
Maybe glyph breath of fire and hope the disorient helps you avoid a melee attack or two from them, obviously this won't help a ton since they're probably constantly being AoE'd
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90 Pandaren Monk
15630
you shouldn't be using mastery ... ever.

You are getting whooping 5% extra stagger (which isn't extra 5% dmg reduced, it's simply 5% more dmg redirected to stagger). You are sacrificing a huge amount of haste/expertise (aka resources) in expense of 5% extra stagger?

there's no logs for us to check, but imo, you could be doing better with more resources than 5% extra stagger any day.

you could also be using RJW instead of Xuen, so you can aoe them while keeping shuffle up. Or you can use xuen to soak one add, both are possible.

also keep in mind that what keep other tanks alive while tanking adds is block. This is the old block X avoidance stravaganza we all know about. They shouldn't ever put you on that duty if they have a block tank available.

but unless on heroic they can't be slowed, you can kite them with DH, get distance, clash back in, KS > breath of fire, roll out .. RJW from distance ... KS from the edge, BoF again .. Leg sweep, deal some dmg, roll out again.

You can easily kite them around as brm and take very low dmg.
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
12/09/2012 03:26 PMPosted by Bryce
I'm trying to figure something out to stop it for tonight and I'm coming up with nothing I'm not already trying. I'm getting stuns from dps on the adds, I'm stunning them, etc. Just can't really do much if I get globaled.


Are you making sure you're not overlapping stuff? Like having a full 6 second stun on them while you have a big cd and then only getting 3/1 second stuns when you most need then?
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90 Pandaren Monk
7915
you shouldn't be using mastery ... ever.

You are getting whooping 5% extra stagger (which isn't extra 5% dmg reduced, it's simply 5% more dmg redirected to stagger). You are sacrificing a huge amount of haste/expertise (aka resources) in expense of 5% extra stagger?

there's no logs for us to check, but imo, you could be doing better with more resources than 5% extra stagger any day.

you could also be using RJW instead of Xuen, so you can aoe them while keeping shuffle up. Or you can use xuen to soak one add, both are possible.

also keep in mind that what keep other tanks alive while tanking adds is block. This is the old block X avoidance stravaganza we all know about. They shouldn't ever put you on that duty if they have a block tank available.

but unless on heroic they can't be slowed, you can kite them with DH, get distance, clash back in, KS > breath of fire, roll out .. RJW from distance ... KS from the edge, BoF again .. Leg sweep, deal some dmg, roll out again.

You can easily kite them around as brm and take very low dmg.


I was thinking about that. But it's me and the bear on the adds with the dk on the reavers. And I posted logs, were they deleted or something? And I've been using Xuen to tank one of the adds for me, which is why I had him talented. Reason I wasn't really kiting was we had a couple melee on my side helping kill the adds and that would of just been useless to them, or should I just of !@#$ed em and went about kiting.

12/10/2012 07:41 AMPosted by Lailala
Are you making sure you're not overlapping stuff? Like having a full 6 second stun on them while you have a big cd and then only getting 3/1 second stuns when you most need then?


I think that might of happened a couple times because I panicked more or less =/. I really need to stop panicking so much -__-.
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90 Pandaren Monk
15630
I run a 10 man, so it works a little differently.

Instead of splitting the adds evenly, we had the pally tank the 2 big guys and I kited the small guys with Dizzying Haze. It's a perma 50% slow on them.

Imagine a Y shape on the room. The left upper point are the adds on the left, the right uppser point are the adds on the right. I throw kegs on both of them and move to the bottom point of the Y, where the packs "merge" in a big group of adds in the middle of the room.

From there I start to play merry-go-round with them. They basically rotate in the middle of the room harmlessly while I keep running in circles around them. Everyone can happily aoe, while I throw kegs, breath of fire here and there .. Keg smash when I have an oppening with stuns etc. Doing that with only one group of adds is even easier and your dpsers can happily dps 50% slowed adds.

And that made our healing much easier, since the healers only had to heal the pally tank and spot heal me in case I made a mistake.

If you are doing this kiting strat, then use RJW for extra dmg/threat.

IF you are tanking still, use Xuen to soak the big add and pull the smaller adds away from him (not sure if he counts under their stacking dmg buff).

I'm honestly not sure how hard they hit on 25 man heroic. So I can't say for sure. The other situation where I tank a lot of adds is windwalker + all of his adds (but the CC'd ones). And well ... 100% uptime on shuffle + guard on cd + healing mechanics on cd do just fine.

the more resources you have (haste/exp) the easier it is to manage those things with a lot of uptime. Which is, imo, vastly superior to mastery.
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90 Human Paladin
7505
I'm not sure if this was mentioned but if you can get some capacitor totems on your adds that helps immensely
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90 Pandaren Monk
7915
I run a 10 man, so it works a little differently.

Instead of splitting the adds evenly, we had the pally tank the 2 big guys and I kited the small guys with Dizzying Haze. It's a perma 50% slow on them.

Imagine a Y shape on the room. The left upper point are the adds on the left, the right uppser point are the adds on the right. I throw kegs on both of them and move to the bottom point of the Y, where the packs "merge" in a big group of adds in the middle of the room.

From there I start to play merry-go-round with them. They basically rotate in the middle of the room harmlessly while I keep running in circles around them. Everyone can happily aoe, while I throw kegs, breath of fire here and there .. Keg smash when I have an oppening with stuns etc. Doing that with only one group of adds is even easier and your dpsers can happily dps 50% slowed adds.

And that made our healing much easier, since the healers only had to heal the pally tank and spot heal me in case I made a mistake.

If you are doing this kiting strat, then use RJW for extra dmg/threat.

IF you are tanking still, use Xuen to soak the big add and pull the smaller adds away from him (not sure if he counts under their stacking dmg buff).

I'm honestly not sure how hard they hit on 25 man heroic. So I can't say for sure. The other situation where I tank a lot of adds is windwalker + all of his adds (but the CC'd ones). And well ... 100% uptime on shuffle + guard on cd + healing mechanics on cd do just fine.

the more resources you have (haste/exp) the easier it is to manage those things with a lot of uptime. Which is, imo, vastly superior to mastery.


I did go into the phase with 40-50s on Shuffle and it didn't fall off, but it was noticable than my usual haste setup though that's for sure. And to give an idea of the damage, I took one melee from each of the three adds for 248k or something like that back to back to back. Nothing got dodged or parried, etc. Guard was 2 seconds from coming off cd to be used and just got 1 shot there.

@Savior: What do capacitor totems do again?
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90 Pandaren Monk
15630
248k is def a lot to take per single hit .. this case either you should kite or swap spot with another tank. If you are doing everything perfectly and getting hit by more than 200k per auto attack, I wouldn't advise tanking the way you are doing it.

keep in mind that 248k is more than will of the emperor bosses hit for. And that's one boss.

is the druid taking how much per hit? because 248k per hit seems very off. We are talking about what? 4-5 adds attacking you? There's really no way to tank 4 mobs hitting for 200k each.

without logs from the fight it's hard to give any suggestions.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
is the druid taking how much per hit? because 248k per hit seems very off. We are talking about what? 4-5 adds attacking you? There's really no way to tank 4 mobs hitting for 200k each.


3 Windblades on him, 3 on the Druid, 2 Reavers on the DK.

@ the OP: Are you sure the adds that you're tanking aren't getting buffed by other mobs? Possibly WIndblades being kited through your mobs?

Because looking at other 25H logs for BM's:

[22:26:52.250] Set'thik Windblade hits Rex Dodge
[22:26:52.250] Set'thik Windblade hits Rex 59077 (A: 56724)
[22:26:52.342] Set'thik Windblade hits Rex 141805 (A: 136157)

[19:25:59.958] Set'thik Windblade hits Ruzzletonk Dodge
[19:25:59.958] Set'thik Windblade hits Ruzzletonk 142045 (A: 141026)
[19:25:59.958] Set'thik Windblade hits Ruzzletonk 112259 (A: 111455)

[21:34:18.006] Set'thik Windblade hits Ninecatz Dodge
[21:34:18.340] Set'thik Windblade hits Ninecatz 145241 (A: 156019)
[21:34:18.507] Set'thik Windblade hits Ninecatz Dodge

[21:35:29.290] Set'thik Windblade hits Ninecatz 122250 (A: 131322)
[21:35:29.290] Set'thik Windblade hits Ninecatz Parry
[21:35:29.436] Set'thik Windblade hits Ninecatz 139785 (A: 150158)
[21:35:30.153] Set'thik Windblade hits Ninecatz 56095 (A: 87298)
[21:35:30.876] Set'thik Windblade hits Ninecatz Parry
[21:35:30.876] Set'thik Windblade hits Ninecatz 117652 (A: 126383)

There is no reason you should be taking 250k hits AFTER Stagger.
Edited by Slashlove on 12/10/2012 1:11 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
7915
Yea, 3 adds on me, 3 on the druid and 2 reavers on the dk. I'm assuming I got hit for that much because of 2 extra adds from the druids side being kited right over top of me at that point. I've never seen them hit that hard all at the same moment. And I think it was 248k, I believe it was in the 200s easily, but I could be mistaken and I forgot which attempt it was on to double check in the log.

Here, I found one log that hasn't been removed. I'm pretty sure this is the one that had the attempts that I got 1 shot in it. And it was the one I was mastery on I believe. There were a couple attempts where I failed and let shuffle fall off, I know that and fixed it for the others I believe.

And I'm horrible with worldoflogs, I really should learn how to use that site -_-.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-4w0dwyh8akknnl7m/
Edited by Bryce on 12/10/2012 1:16 PM PST
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90 Orc Monk
13815
you shouldn't be using mastery ... ever.



I'll go ahead and confirm that mastery is the best stat for handling extremely hard hitting mobs that you find in 25m Hardmodes. Saying you shouldn't be using it ever is just the close minded approach that many brewmasters are taking, you'll realize it's value on certain encounters, I believe Grand Empress heroic, and Sha of Fear heroic both fall in that category.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
The only time I can see a 200k+ death there is on a wipe, with sutff like

[21:19:58.658] Set'thik Windblade gains Band of Valor (6) from Set'thik Windblade
[21:19:58.658] Set'thik Windblade gains Band of Valor (6) from Set'thik Windblade
[21:19:58.658] Set'thik Windblade gains Band of Valor (6) from Set'thik Windblade
[21:19:58.658] Set'thik Windblade gains Band of Valor (6) from Set'thik Windblade
[21:19:58.658] Kor'thik Reaver gains Band of Valor (6) from Kor'thik Reaver
[21:19:59.489] Set'thik Windblade hits Bryce 252639 (O: 95950, A: 171632)
[21:19:59.658] Set'thik Windblade's Band of Valor (5) fades from Set'thik Windblade
[21:19:59.658] Set'thik Windblade's Band of Valor (5) fades from Set'thik Windblade
[21:19:59.658] Kor'thik Reaver gains Band of Valor from Kor'thik Reaver

So yeah, I think you can safely assume that being hit for 200k+ is only a result of something going horribly wrong and adds being buffed.

Mote typical patterns are like:
21:39:25.991] Set'thik Windblade hits Bryce Dodge
[21:39:25.991] Set'thik Windblade gains Band of Valor (3) from Set'thik Windblade
[21:39:25.991] Set'thik Windblade gains Band of Valor (3) from Set'thik Windblade
[21:39:25.991] Set'thik Windblade gains Band of Valor from Set'thik Windblade
[21:39:26.127] Set'thik Windblade hits Bryce Miss
[21:39:26.509] Set'thik Windblade hits Bryce Miss
[21:39:26.798] Set'thik Windblade hits Bryce Dodge
[21:39:26.899] Set'thik Windblade hits Bryce Dodge
[21:39:27.243] Set'thik Windblade hits Bryce Parry
[21:39:27.486] Set'thik Windblade hits Bryce Dodge
[21:39:27.547] Set'thik Windblade Sonic Blade Bryce 109986 (A: 163776)
[21:39:27.659] Set'thik Windblade hits Bryce 101923 (A: 114898)
[21:39:28.016] Set'thik Windblade gains Band of Valor (3) from Set'thik Windblade
[21:39:28.016] Set'thik Windblade gains Band of Valor (3) from Set'thik Windblade
[21:39:28.072] Set'thik Windblade hits Bryce Parry
[21:39:28.434] Set'thik Windblade hits Bryce 44272 (A: 49906)
[21:39:28.436] Set'thik Windblade hits Bryce 89157 (A: 100506)
[21:39:28.836] Set'thik Windblade hits Bryce 36472 (A: 41114)
[21:39:28.957] Set'thik Windblade hits Bryce Misfire
[21:39:29.194] Set'thik Windblade hits Bryce 76759 (A: 86529)
[21:39:29.591] Set'thik Windblade hits Bryce Dodge
[21:39:30.012] Set'thik Windblade hits Bryce Miss
[21:39:30.012] Set'thik Windblade hits Bryce 84678 (A: 95456)
[21:39:30.363] Set'thik Windblade hits Bryce 34711 (A: 39129)
[21:39:30.496] Set'thik Windblade hits Bryce 49354 (A: 55636)
[21:39:30.655] Set'thik Windblade hits Bryce Dodge

which should be fine for you to deal with.
Edited by Slashlove on 12/10/2012 1:36 PM PST
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90 Human Monk
17840
12/10/2012 01:22 PMPosted by Imikey
I'll go ahead and confirm that mastery is the best stat for handling extremely hard hitting mobs that you find in 25m Hardmodes. Saying you shouldn't be using it ever is just the close minded approach that many brewmasters are taking, you'll realize it's value on certain encounters, I believe Grand Empress heroic, and Sha of Fear heroic both fall in that category.

Going with double stam trinkets and a flask, or even double elixirs (Mantid Elixir+Monk's Elixir) will give similar (if not better) odds to survive Dread Thrash than reforging everything to mastery for another 8% Stagger at best.

If 4 hits land without a CD going you'll die anyway. At least without sacrificing too much of other stats, I have a better chance to survive through higher EB generation.

Mastery stacking is great if you're scrapping for all EH you can get, but that pretty much only applies to tanks in cutting-edge stuff - H WotE in 463 gear for example, where you're simply trying to stay alive in subpar gear. Most of us are past that point; I tanked it in my current gear without resorting to either stam or mastery, and by the time we get to H SoF I should be fine too.
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90 Pandaren Monk
15630
you shouldn't be using mastery ... ever.



I'll go ahead and confirm that mastery is the best stat for handling extremely hard hitting mobs that you find in 25m Hardmodes. Saying you shouldn't be using it ever is just the close minded approach that many brewmasters are taking, you'll realize it's value on certain encounters, I believe Grand Empress heroic, and Sha of Fear heroic both fall in that category.


You are telling me I'll realize it's value on a content that you didn't even play yourself to say for sure it's valuable?

If you are using the gear setup of the top 10-50 guilds in the world as reference, that's a horrible plan.

They kill those bosses under conditions you and I (and 99% of the playerbase, mind you) will ever play.
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