Shadow is a flawed spec PvE (suggestions)

Imho shadow is a flawed spec in PvE for several reasons. this will be a fairly long post so I will try to break it up so you can pick and choose what you wanna read.

now before I get into tearing Shadow a new one there is a few things I want to say so it doesn't get twisted. I LOVE shadow this Exp I think it is vastly improved in both feel and function from Cata I have even switched to this to being my "main" but with all the improvements that has made this spec so much better it only makes the faults in the spec all the more glaring and obvious.

Second you can do better dps in holy spec with 2 buttons than you can in Shadow with 12 WHAT THE HELL lol now on with the show

1. we have no dps CD. yea I know we kinda have shadowfiend but as far as a dps CD goes its bad.
my Suggestion would be to be either and or both, bring back AA like as a dps CD ("empowers the user with shadow increasing shadow damage by 20% for 20 secs" on a 3 min CD) or tweak the way Shadowfiend/Mindbender works. right now Shadowfiend is more powerful both in dps and mana regeneration on a 3 min CD but mindbender is on a 1 min CD so over the same 3 min period mindbender destroys Shadowfiend even if the individual cast is weaker. my suggestion is to make the basic version of Shadow fiend what mindbender is now on the 1 min CD and mindbender what Shadowfiend is now on a 1 min CD.

2. our AoE isn't great. in 5.1 mind sear got a nice little buff which is great, but that only took our AoE from bottom of the pack to middle. but hey we don't need to be great at everything right so okay our sustained AoE is acceptable, our burst AoE on the other hand... not so much. I would like to see an ability along the lines of "Erupting Shadow - consumes all the caster's Shadow orbs to deal x damage within y yards can only be used while channeling Mind Sear" either that or a way to spread our DoTs

3. Our Shadow Orbs are clunky at best. I think that the fact that mind Blast is our primary way to generate shadow orbs is flawed it essentially locks DP behind an invisible 24 sec CD which feels weird. I also think that either we need a passive ability to generate 1 shadow orb every 10 seconds while not in combat or like Paladins let us stack orbs to 5 even if we can only use a maximum of 3 at once.

4. Mind Spike is still crap. yes we can spec into FDCL to make it not useless but that means we either have to spec into that (I thought we were trying to move away from cookie cutter) or its useless.

5. Vampiric touch is beyond useless. I honestly don't know what to do with this spell. I don't really need the mana regeneration from it and it is actually a dps loss to cast it, in the same time it takes me to cast it I could of done its entire Periodic damage with mind flay. I can do the same damage in with mind flay in the time it takes to cast it as it does of its entire 17 seconds, help me out here why is this spell in the game other than to confuse people. this spell needs to be instant cast, have have its damage given a massive buff or just removed and the mana regeneration baked into Shadowfiend or HoH because right now its awkward and clunk and literally detrimental to our spec (give that FDCL is a thing removing it would also mean removing that talent so either buff it or make it instant cast).

All in all it comes down to shadow needing to be played perfectly in order to attain mediocre dps. Given the complexity of the spec and its priority rotation it just seems wrong. now I am not under any circumstances saying simplify Shadow I like that my rotation has 12 abilities I am constantly using all I am saying is it would be nice if my effort was reflected in the charts instead of where we are now.

TLDR
shadow needs to do more damage for our effort and complexity
Edited by Xenthia on 12/9/2012 6:28 PM PST
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Reserved
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90 Undead Priest
13345
Can you numerically define "mediocre dps"?
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well I dont know about you but I'm pulling between 40-60k dps depending on the fight

and when there is a lock in our raid team pulling a steady 90k and a windwalker monk not far behind and 2 dks and a hunter not far behind our monk with me at by far at the bottom it just seems wrong Spriests can be so far behind.

According to my Simcraft I'm right where I should be as far as the dps my toon can pull
Edited by Xenthia on 12/9/2012 11:35 AM PST
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90 Gnome Priest
14515
I'll grant we could use maybe a 10% boost, which would put us "above average" but not the leader of the pack or anything.

However, I don't really agree with any of your points. I'd support either a buff across the board, or boosts to our single-target spells (Mind Flay, Mind Blast, SW: Death).

Edit: Okay, I admit having a cooldown to instantly net me 3 Shadow Orbs would be awesome.
Edited by Tuei on 12/9/2012 1:10 PM PST
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90 Undead Priest
18955
12/09/2012 11:12 AMPosted by Xenthia
Second you can do better dps in holy spec with 2 buttons than you can in Shadow with 12 WHAT THE HELL lol now on with the show


I feel like this is not an accurate statement.
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90 Undead Priest
5720
I miss Cata pve where any class can pretty much be at the top of the dps meter if they all had the same gear
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90 Undead Priest
18955
12/09/2012 03:00 PMPosted by Karasaki
I miss Cata pve where any class can pretty much be at the top of the dps meter if they all had the same gear


That is not an accurate representation of the state of DPS in Cataclysm.
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90 Troll Priest
10360
I disagree with almost everything that was stated in the original post. If you're only doing 40k-60k dps in 481 gear the problem is not shadow, its that you are not playing it correctly.

And saying holy does more dps than shadow at 90 made me laugh so hard I almost choked on my coffee.

Is shadow perfect? No, it's not, and there are things I would like to see adjusted with the class. But overall we are competitive. And I find the playstyle fun and rewarding.
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90 Night Elf Priest
13930
Hmm...

Raidbots Top 100 Position & Score:

25H - #7, 81.4 (compare: top score, 92.0; bottom score, 41.4)
25N - #8, 85.1 (compare: top score, 96.2; bottom score, 58.1)
10H - #4, 83.2 (compare: top score, 94.4; bottom score, 46.2)
10N - #6, 85.6 (compare: top score, 97; bottom score, 61.7)

Raidbots All Parses Position & Score:

25H: #15, 83.3 (compare: top score, 92.3; bottom score, 54.5)
25N: #16, 86.1 (compare: top score, 93.1; bottom score, 80.9)
10H: #13, 84.8 (compare: top score, 93.9, bottom score, 60.6)
10N: #15, 86.2 (compare: top score, 93.9; bottom score, 81.5)

Take the numbers with a grain of salt, but they definitely are indicating strongly that Shadow is nowhere near broken.
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90 Troll Priest
11765
12/09/2012 02:51 PMPosted by Nixxe
Second you can do better dps in holy spec with 2 buttons than you can in Shadow with 12 WHAT THE HELL lol now on with the show


I feel like this is not an accurate statement.


Welcome to the priest forums.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
Hmm...

Raidbots Top 100 Position & Score:

25H - #7, 81.4 (compare: top score, 92.0; bottom score, 41.4)
25N - #8, 85.1 (compare: top score, 96.2; bottom score, 58.1)
10H - #4, 83.2 (compare: top score, 94.4; bottom score, 46.2)
10N - #6, 85.6 (compare: top score, 97; bottom score, 61.7)

Raidbots All Parses Position & Score:

25H: #15, 83.3 (compare: top score, 92.3; bottom score, 54.5)
25N: #16, 86.1 (compare: top score, 93.1; bottom score, 80.9)
10H: #13, 84.8 (compare: top score, 93.9, bottom score, 60.6)
10N: #15, 86.2 (compare: top score, 93.9; bottom score, 81.5)

Take the numbers with a grain of salt, but they definitely are indicating strongly that Shadow is nowhere near broken.


That looks like the numeric definition of mediocre dps to me. Not bad, passable really, but below average.

Shadow may not be bad, but the OP is right on a lot of his points. I'm not sure if VT is actually literally weaker in DPS/cast than Mindflay, but the fact that it could even be close irks me. Shadow's lack of burst AoE (and sub-par sustained AoE) is probably the biggest problem with the spec as a whole, and shadow's lack of burst period is a close second.
Edited by Sotanaht on 12/9/2012 4:28 PM PST
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90 Undead Priest
18955
12/09/2012 04:20 PMPosted by Mindplague


I feel like this is not an accurate statement.


Welcome to the priest forums.


I often understate.
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1) If you want a dps cooldown, spec into Power Infusion. It's overall less sustained damage than the other two choices on that tier, but extra damage on demand can be helpful in certain situations, that's your choice.

2) Our AoE is more than fine. Whenever we need to AoE stuff down fast, I'm always at the top of the meters. Mind Sear once again hits like a truck, and we have our level 90 talents that do quite a bit of damage as well. With fewer targets, we can multidot, which is still very strong.

3) DP hits like a truck, that's why it's got such a long effective cooldown. Orb generation on Mind Blast and SW:D are fine, and if you want more frequent DP casts, spec into Divine Insight. Shadow Orbs are around a thousand times better than they were in Cataclysm.

4) You don't HAVE To spec into FDCL. You only HAVE to spec into it if you want to use Mind Spike. Doesn't seem like a problem to me. Mind Spike is still useful in situations where you want to burst down a short lived target. I use it occasionally in situations like that, especially on Imperial Vizier when he casts Mind Control, since you don't want to leave too many DoTs on the target.

5) That's not even true, you just made that up. Vampiric Touch isn't nearly the powerhouse that it was in Cataclysm, but it's decent damage and it's certainly not a dps loss to cast. And when you have cleave fights (which there are a ton of in this tier of raiding), our DoTs are quite good, especially when you also take FDCL.

Also, Holy dps is nowhere near competitive in PvE, much less higher than Shadow.

Your average ilvl isn't bad, but you're using a blue weapon and offhand, which is very likely the cause of your low dps. You're also a bit below hit cap (though that's not a big deal), and your haste could be a bit higher (I believe that you want to shoot for around 8k). You're probably better off using the +int/spirit spellthread instead of +int/crit, and enchanting your boots with haste instead of Pandaren's Step (haste > mastery, and the extra run speed isn't all that useful, you can use Body and Soul/Angelic Feathers if you need to get somewhere fast). And of course, make sure you use flasks/food/potions.

Shadow is doing fine now.
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90 Night Elf Priest
13930
That looks like the numeric definition of mediocre dps to me. Not bad, passable really, but below average.

Shadow may not be bad, but the OP is right on a lot of his points. I'm not sure if VT is actually literally weaker in DPS/cast than Mindflay, but the fact that it could even be close irks me. Shadow's lack of burst AoE (and sub-par sustained AoE) is probably the biggest problem with the spec as a whole, and shadow's lack of burst period is a close second.


Actually, we're seeing above average dps at the top levels, and slightly below average dps when all parses are taken into account. What this indicates is that Shadow has a higher skill cap, or a higher potential than many other specs.

The point was to point out that problem with the OPs premise, which argues that Shadow is broken. It also conflicts with her statement that Shadow requires perfect play to obtain mediocre damage. In truth, excellent play puts Shadow at the top of the heap.

You should also look at the OP's experience this expansion. She has five normal mode kills in current; everything else is LFR.

Is Shadow perfect? No. Is the OP exaggerating and probably playing incorrectly? What I've read says yes.
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thank you all for your comments, its nice to hear different opinions. but unfortunately a lot of you seem to of taken this post as a shadow is terrible thread which was not the intention I even stated at the beginning how much I'm loving shadow atm even to the point of switching mains.

12/09/2012 04:43 PMPosted by Flintte
Shadow is doing fine now.
yes shadow is fine, its not good/great or bad/terrible its just fine/mediocre I was merely presenting some ideas as to how to bring us up a little from middle of the pack thats all.

as for my comments on vampiric touch I may have been a little dramatic. if you want to look at the numbers my VT does 4076 dps by itself, mind flay does 19044 dps by itself and using both together I do 20908 dps so yes it is a very slight dps increase to use it.

and I honestly wish I was kidding about Holy dps. I read a thread about Holy dps being better than Shadow so I was like "would you get a load of this guy" and decided to try it for lols and you can easily get a sustained 50k dps in holy since the buff to to chakra:Chastise

now some of you said the problem with my dps is me and of that I've no doubt is true to an extent but I am confused as to how to improve my dps. I use the shadowpriest.com rotation and I do almost exactly the same dps as simulationcraft says I should both in average dps and maximum dps

P.S.
I realise alot of this aggro is over my thread title shadow is a broken spec and yes I used some poetic license to catch peoples attention (perhaps flawed would of been a more appropriate word to use in hindsight). shadow atm is viable it just in my experience does not seem to excel at anything either
Edited by Xenthia on 12/9/2012 6:19 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
6370
Perhaps the "shadow is a broken spec" title threw us off. A bit odd to say shadow is fine....... but call it broken.
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90 Human Priest
7690
I'll have to check on the dps of vt vs mf, but the idea was to have dots tick away as you're casting other spells. VT will always be useful with FDCL and multidotting. They said before they want multidotting to be nerfed, so our dots are near garbage. But maybe if your comparison is true, maybe they'll finally buff them.

I don't think they want to give us a dps cd because they have said they wanted to clear up the clutter, and we have enough complexity as it is, unless they tack on an additional boost to VE or such.

I think blizzard knows they have to boost our single target damage. I doubt it will be MB or MS since talents help them out. It will have to be MF (20%), which will certainly make your argument stronger, hence needing to buff our dots, conflicting with making multidotting stronger. It usually takes Blizzard 3 months to figure out the class balancing.
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90 Undead Priest
5720
In pve shadow priests need to have a balance somewhere. Today I was running with two people who had item level 458 gear and I have 467 gear and they were out dps-ing me by 20k-35k in lfr. Hunter, and a rouge.....I wonder what is wrong with our spec >>
Edited by Karasaki on 12/9/2012 8:49 PM PST
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90 Undead Priest
5720
And since it is near Christmas.

My wishlist:

For shadow priests to be able to actually do some damage for once in this expansion.
Edited by Karasaki on 12/9/2012 8:52 PM PST
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