Survivability: What am I missing?

90 Human Rogue
7710
Warning: Wall of text :D

I'm starting to get a little frustrated. But before I run off to General to post a "WTF BLIZZ WHY U H8 ROUGES???!!" thread (okay, I wouldn't actually do it like that) I thought I'd come here for some help/advice, because maybe I'm just missing something. A few relevant bits about myself to get started:

• I'm basically a casual solo player who occasionally dabbles in group content, so I'm not looking for advice about dungeon/raid performance.

• My "main" has been my ret paladin since I started playing in early Wrath. She remained my main through Cata, but I rolled and leveled this rogue during Cata and had a lot of fun with her. Prior to Cata I could never manage to get a rogue past about level 20 before I got frustrated and gave up, but something - I know not what - changed with Cata and I suddenly "got" the class. So anyway, MoP arrived and I decided to designate this toon as my "main" for the expansion. It's been mostly fun so far.

• I'm happy with my damage output and comfortable with my rotation. It's not "raid level" of course, but like I said, I don't raid. My DPS is adequate for questing and dailies — I hit things, they die, and I don't … mostly.

My problem, as stated in the thread title, is survivability in specific situations. This is behind my joke about making a "WTF..." thread in General, because with MoP, I've been running into a number of "mechanics" that seem to be either "this should stymie those pesky rogues!" (debuffs that prevent stealth, the worst being those swarms of bugs during the Hidden Master quests with their "no stealth for one minute" debuff; also the sheer number of "summoned" monsters that completely make stealth useless), or else "we completely forgot rogues exist when we came up with this" (the almost-nonstop "swarms" of mobs that seem to assume that everybody is either a tank or has powerful AoE).

The first two mechanics are mainly annoyances. With the debuffs I can simply find a safe place to stand and wait for them to wear off. And the "summoned" monsters simply deprive me of my Shadowstep -> Ambush opener, making them take a little bit longer to kill.

My problem is the "swarms" of mobs. The small, weak ones are easy to kill, but they completely drain my Energy - they die so quickly that I can't get CPs built up to use finishing moves to replenish. The only way I've found to get around this is to Hemo -> 1-CP Eviscerate over and over. But I can survive these as long as I don't get completely overwhelmed by sheer numbers (GL daily with "Unleashed Spirits", I'm looking at you).

Where I'm really getting hosed is when I can't avoid multiple, full-strength mobs, or the small adds when I'm fighting a big mob. Most of the really big mobs, like that stone behemoth in the first part of the GL dailies, once I figure out their mechanics and learn how to avoid their big attacks, I can solo them (though I'm still glad for help). But for big mobs like Bloodtip, who start summoning mass numbers of small adds, I quickly get overwhelmed and die. Last time I tried to solo her (I got tired of waiting for somebody else to come along) I had her down to about 5% when her adds buried me. Then, yesterday, I was trying to do Shado-Pan dailies against mantids. I'm already at a disadvantage since mantids can "see" through stealth if you're moving. When it came time to try to kill the elite mantids, as soon as they feared me and sent me running through other nearby mobs it was all over. I simply cannot survive being attacked by 4+ regular-strength mobs plus an elite at the same time. Yeah, I have my EMfH racial to cancel the fear, but it's still a matter of hitting the button before I body-pull anything else, hard to do in an area full of mantid.

The problem, as I see it, is twofold: Rogues just aren't that "tough", and our AoE hits like a wet noodle. Even against those new "weak" mobs, a 5-CP Crimson Tempest still only does around 8k damage vs their 78k+ hit points. 8k might be enough if CT was spammable, but when I have to wait to build up 5 more CP to use it again at full strength, it becomes laughable. Even more laughable if they're normal, full-strength mobs. Frankly, I'm not even seeing the point of CT and FoK at this point.

So, advice? Suggestions? Have I completely overlooked something?
Edited by Thelois on 12/7/2012 9:52 AM PST
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90 Human Rogue
11855

The first two mechanics are mainly annoyances. With the debuffs I can simply find a safe place to stand and wait for them to wear off. And the "summoned" monsters simply deprive me of my Shadowstep -> Ambush opener, making them take a little bit longer to kill.

My problem is the "swarms" of mobs. The small, weak ones are easy to kill, but they completely drain my Energy - they die so quickly that I can't get CPs built up to use finishing moves to replenish. The only way I've found to get around this is to Hemo -> 1-CP Eviscerate over and over. But I can survive these as long as I don't get completely overwhelmed by sheer numbers (GL daily with "Unleashed Spirits", I'm looking at you).


Remember to utilize Cloak of Shadows to get rid of bad debuffs. It's on a longish CD, but it's useful at times. Debuffs like Faerie Fire which inhibit Stealth are annoying but also not extremely common, I find that DoTs are the main thing in PvE that keeps me from re-entering stealth.

As far as dealing with lots of mobs, we just don't aoe things down like a caster can. My tactic for multiple mobs is to turn on BF, go through my rotation, pop Evasion when I start losing health. Combat Readiness can help to mitigate physical damage as well. FoK/Crimson Tempest make for decent AoE (toggle BF off when rotating those) but I find burning adds one by one to be more effective. You can also talent Feint to provide damage mitigation. Also, I would apply Leeching Poison, it's terrible in PvP but I love it for PvE. Also, be careful about pulls. Pulling 2-3 mobs at once is ideal for Combat. I'm a fan of pulling mobs into corners or generally out of LoS of other mobs.

Knowing when to group up is also important. Sure you can solo dailies, but some zones are so packed that it's significantly faster in a group. Especially when you're on a full realm and you've got locks and mages tagging everything in sight.

The most major change will be through gear, though. Dunno if any of that was helpful - I wish you luck.
Edited by Carroway on 12/7/2012 10:40 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
7280
Combat spec = aoe dmg. If ur questing in sub its an issue, like u said..

Use shadow focus so u can sap 1, open on another with full energy & no downtime. Keep blade flurry up and dont sap too close to ur main target, or ur cleave may break it.

For those low hp pests that swarm, grab Shuriken Toss. Its very low energy and does moderate dmg, and will get a cp up so u can CT and bleed them all. Then just tab and use toss for snd/recoup cps. Anticipation is nice, but ur rarely going to benefit from it questing. Just change out ST if ur going to go against an elite or something.

Also consider picking up elusiveness for quest mobs too. Combat readiness is really overkill unless ur against a melee elite. Feint costs little energy and the 30% dmg reduction from all sources is nice.

One great addition in MoP is the ability to swapout talents on the fly depending on what ur doing.

Hope that helps.
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90 Undead Rogue
6385
12/07/2012 10:37 AMPosted by Carroway
As far as dealing with lots of mobs, we just don't aoe things down like a caster can


In this expansion it seems a need, everything comes 1-3 at a time usually more. We as Rogues depending on spec have very few abilities to deal with such a match up?

FOK, Crimson, Blade Fury, Killing Spree?

All the other Melee classes have burst and Aoes, some even have those and pets!
Edited by Homiejackson on 12/7/2012 11:37 AM PST
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90 Human Rogue
7710
Thanks, I'll start trying to work some of these things into my fights (gonna be a mess trying to assign keybinds to everything, though - damn rogues use a lot of buttons!) My off-spec is Combat (mainly because I lucked into Krol Scimitar and figured the sword would be better suited to Combat than Sub), though I've only recently started trying to familiarize myself with it. I've played as pure Sub since I rolled this toon.

I may end up just skipping a lot of the Shado-Pan mantid dailies, though. Just too many of those bugs! I found I had a much better time doing the yaungol dailies.

(sorry for taking so long to get back here - I posted right before I left for work)
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90 Human Rogue
11855
12/07/2012 08:45 PMPosted by Thelois
damn rogues use a lot of buttons!


Macros helped me a lot. I barely use them on any other classes, my Mage only uses two macros, my Shaman uses 2, my Paladin uses 4, my Rogue uses 7-8 depending on the spec. Castsequences can be great at times.
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90 Human Rogue
7710
I have one macro that casts Premeditation + Ambush:

#showtooltip Ambush
/cast Premeditation
/cast Ambush

And another one tied to Hemorrhage that attempts to precede it with my on-use trinket and Shadow Blades:

#showtooltip Hemorrhage
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/use 13
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Hemorrhage

But I'm not sure this one is working correctly. I'm going to have to study the macro rules, because I'm unclear on which and how many actions can be linked together in a single macro (the /console Sound_EnableSFX bits are to stop the game from barking at me every time I press the key while my trinket is on CD).

EDIT: One more for Combat spec:

#showtooltip Sinister Strike
/cast Adrenaline Rush
/cast Sinister Strike

(and again, I'm leaving for work soon and won't be back until after 8PM PST)
Edited by Thelois on 12/8/2012 9:15 PM PST
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I had a lot of trouble with the mantid elites until I found a great spot.

Right above the big bug pits (where you give kites to captured Shado-Pan), there is a small lake. A few elites patrol this area -- I think 3 or 4. Wait by the water, stealthed. Sap one escort mob, and let the elite get some distance away. Blind the second escort, then pull the elite into the middle of the lake.

If you do it right, you shouldn't pull anything else. When the stuns wear off, the sapped mantid shouldn't come after you (if you let the elite walk far enough); the blinded one will, though.

Remember also that the elites can be tagged by multiple people, even if you are not in a group. Damage an elite under attack by someone, keep aggro off yourself, and you're golden.
Edited by Darwìn on 12/8/2012 12:01 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Rogue
10910
#showtooltip Hemorrhage
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/use 13
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Hemorrhage


drop the SFX thingies and throw this into the macro somewhere:

/run UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Also, as many actions as you want can be linked in macros, so long as they're all off the global cooldown. Otherwise you need to do a cast sequence macro.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
7280
Shadow Blades is a big cd to tie into your cp building ability. What if someone tries to jump u and u just blew a major dps cd on a trash mob?
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Your only option is basically combat spec, pop BF and use KS/AR/SB (not at the same time).

I honestly am starting to think Rogues need to have fewer specs, or we need a design team with far greater vision as to what each spec should really be and how it should function.
Edited by Dak on 12/8/2012 2:03 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Rogue
9585
Just got solod 1 v 1 by a backpeddling hunter.. at 60% resilience.

He didn't much damage, but his pet was ridiculous, ohh rogues.
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90 Undead Rogue
9295
To OP.

I leveled as Assassin and here is how I handled multiple mobs.

Glyphys:
1) Deadly Momentum
2) Feint

Talents:
1) Elusiveness

Take whatever other talents/glyphs you want.

When fighting multiple mobs try and get a 3-5 Combo recup up early.
Attack the weakest one first.
Make sure you have Rupture up when it is about to die.

Reason for this is with Deadly Momentum it will fresh your recup when it dies so you only have to apply it once. Also when it dies with rupture it will give you an energy boost to start on the next one.

Pop Evasion early when you have the most beating on you. Also pop your offensive cooldowns early so you can get their numbers down as fast as possible. Try to keep Feint up. So much of Assassin damage comes from white damage it doesn't hurt as much as it could and it's more imporant to reduce your incoming damage then get off another mutilate.

Is Sap an option?
Throw Blind on the target with the highest health and kill it last.
Don't forget to dismantle a melee target as well.
With that you have CC'd two and taken the weapon out of ones hand for a bit.

If things really get out of hand you always have vanish so hopefully you at least killed a couple so you can go back and finish of the now smaller pack.

I find this works better than trying to AoE spamming a group down.

I'm not sure if you are Assassin or not but you should be able to tweak the advice to your spec. I really had very little trouble leveling or doing dailies. But I def have to be smart about my pulls too. I can't just run in and grab adds like I can with my DK and then pull more cause there isn't enough around me.

Hope that helps.
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90 Pandaren Rogue
6145
The key to surviving as a rogue is to delete your rogue and play any other class, we can take punishment about as well as your average Critter.
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90 Undead Rogue
5905
I dunno, i solo 7-9 reg mobs at the same time in dread wastes as either sub or assassin to farm for dread crystal things for reputation. I gotta figure out what that Shadow Pan dailies OP is talking about.
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90 Worgen Rogue
6700
The mobs become far more bearable as your gear goes up. The hard part is tolerating that you can only pull 1 - 2 mobs at a time, or just chain one at a time without resting, until you get there.

I can do 2 - 3 mobs chaining as assassination now in my current gear.
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trick 1: pull all mobs in a straight line. Mobs to your side and behind you ignore your defenses. If you get aggroed, you have to move to get them all in front of you.

trick 2: build 2 CPs and SnD. Build 5 and evis/rupture. Build 2 and SnD again. You will NEVER run out of energy. On small trash mobs, just spam SS/hemo to 2 and SnD non stop. Your problems will go away and poison/auto DPS will make up for lack of small eviscerates. ROGUES NEED TO LEARN THAT BUILDING TO 5 CPs IS NOT NECESSARY MOST OF THE TIME.

trick 3: Read your abilities. we get great damage modifiers depending on the state of targets. Dirty tricks = godlike for PvEing multiple mobs. Poison, Hemo, garrote, rupture ... use 3 of them, blind the target and forget it. Just don't AOE it out of blind. Now you have 1 mob dying and you don't have to do a thing but waste a couple seconds and a CD.

trick 4: Blind, gouge, kidney, sap, cheapshot ... do you use them correctly?

trick 5: If you do not like to stop and rest ... build a few CPS before target dies and Recuperate. I can use it during a fight w/evasion and heal up all the time. Shoulda rolled Undead and use Cannibalize anyways.

trick 6: Quit saving your cooldowns. We have them to use them. If youre worried about getting jumped, don't play on a PvP server. As long as you monitor your surroundings ... red nameplates, shadows from mounts, etc ... you wont get jumped as a rogue; except by another rogue. You technically shouldn't win that fight anyways. Besides ... 2 minutes flies by.

trick 7: set up a dual spec. If you play sub, then keep sub ... make 1 pvp and 1 pve. This affects TALENTS only though. keep all your key bindings the same.

trick 8: Change your gear with your spec. I cant believe that every rogue doesn't carry 2 sets of armor at lvl 90 anyways. Have you seen some of the AOE trinkets we can get? You shouldn't have any problems.
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90 Human Rogue
7710
I'm on a PvE-RP server (WrA), so not worried about getting jumped by other players.
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90 Undead Rogue
6385
12/09/2012 12:45 PMPosted by Thelois
I'm on a PvE-RP server (WrA), so not worried about getting jumped by other players.


Ewwwww! Seems counter class productive? The whole point of being a Rogue is to gank and kill Nightelves questing?
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