A Shout out to all you Resto Druids out there

90 Troll Druid
13720
Before i go any further, allow me to take this opportunity to say, this is only "theory-crafting" or rather, still in the test stage. But i'm going to have to agree with GC, that resto druids are perfectly fine (though we could use a little tweaking... maybe).

I'll begin by saying, all the sites telling you how to cookie cut your spec, are ALL wrong. They are nothing more than just "suggestions" so treat them as such. Instead try things out on your own... or your druid will continue to be just a mediocre healer, sitting on the bottom of healing meters.

I recently dropping incarnation in favor of soul of the forest, and let me tell you... WOW! Heavy AoE fights where druids normally lack far behind other healing classes may just be a thing of the past. Don't get me wrong, Incarnation will still have its place on low raid AoE fights, where the tanks need more direct heals. But the the heavy AoE fights, Soul of the Forest pulls far ahead... in overall HPS throughput, and mana conservation. I don't have any World of logs posts as of yet, as this is still in the testing stages, but i will have some up soon.

My first test was in RF on Tsulong fight, where even in LFR with the Incarnation build, i was struggling for mana, as i found myself constantly blanketing the raid with rejuv. Instead this time, i moderately blanketed with rejev, and used SotF to buff my wild growth, and wild growth for the first time since t-12 was my number 1 healing ability with over 1300 ticks over the duration of the fight. You can do, what i call mini tranq every 15 seconds, or every 12 seconds with 4pc, and actually output more than tranq when you pop Nature's Vigil before your swiftmend+wild growth.

Now keep in mind this is my own personal testing/trial, but i highly recommend you try this out for yourselves. Personally I can't wait till i get my 4-set... because it will only further improve this build.

Also if you look at my build, you'll notice i'm still soft haste capped at 3043, and reforging mastery. I have also regemmed a lot of my spirit for int (though this is depending on your playstyle, and we wont get into that.)
Edited by Tripcy on 12/8/2012 5:11 PM PST
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Heya Tripcy, I should hop on my mage and say hi to you guys more often lol. Glad to hear it from a healer I've been healed by and respect that your class is doing well.
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45 Night Elf Druid
9725
I agree 100% that SOTF > Incarnation, and even more so after you get your 4 set, as it becomes easier to line up with glyphed wild growth. It definitely takes some getting used to, but I think a lot of druids would benefit from trying it. Also can use SOTF for empowered LB/Rejuv on the tank if the raid isn't taking much damage. All in all, I think it's a very powerful talent that's overlooked.

I do believe druids could use some love though, and I'm hoping we get that soon with buffed WM.
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90 Orc Warrior
12185
pickles
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the drummer (ding dong ding dong doodily do)?
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90 Troll Druid
13720
bump
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100 Night Elf Druid
16290
Thanks for the tip tripcy. I've been contemplating a change to sotf after struggling this tier with mana issues. I'll update with some observations soon.
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100 Night Elf Druid
18515
I'm not against change, so I will try it.

Tree form for me is a back-up/ often life saver cd through high burst areas of fights though. Those instant regrowths = too good when people are about to die.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
I... don't really understand, OP. You're saying that by favoring SoTF > Incarnation that you're able to conserve your mana better - which is the issue rdruids have right now - because you can rely on WG to do more healing for you? And your proof of such implications is because WG is doing #1 healing for you right now?

WG is already doing #1 healing for me right now. It's always fighting with rejuv to be #1, really. So, by going a SoTF spec instead of Incarnation, I'd see that I'd get more WG healing, sure... But it would not fix my problem. Or really any other rdruid's problem actually. It's not because WG isn't healing for enough, it's because it's on a CD and we have nothing else to use other than rejuv.

What you're implying here really is that we no longer spend time rejuving inbetween WGs. You're implying that in order to conserve our mana we need to either sit there and focus on tank healing or to place shrooms. Shrooms is by far so bad in terms of output that all that will do is show us doing less in terms of output by favoring WM over rejuv. So we do less healing in order to be OK on mana? No guild is going to bring an rdruid if this is what you're implying is how we should play in order to be "fine".

Thing is, any rdruid no matter what spec or talent they choose, will be "fine" on mana if they aren't using rejuv excessively. But the thing is, we have to. There is nothing else for us to use.
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100 Night Elf Druid
18515
I... don't really understand, OP. You're saying that by favoring SoTF > Incarnation that you're able to conserve your mana better - which is the issue rdruids have right now - because you can rely on WG to do more healing for you? And your proof of such implications is because WG is doing #1 healing for you right now?

WG is already doing #1 healing for me right now. It's always fighting with rejuv to be #1, really. So, by going a SoTF spec instead of Incarnation, I'd see that I'd get more WG healing, sure... But it would not fix my problem. Or really any other rdruid's problem actually. It's not because WG isn't healing for enough, it's because it's on a CD and we have nothing else to use other than rejuv.

What you're implying here really is that we no longer spend time rejuving inbetween WGs. You're implying that in order to conserve our mana we need to either sit there and focus on tank healing or to place shrooms. Shrooms is by far so bad in terms of output that all that will do is show us doing less in terms of output by favoring WM over rejuv. So we do less healing in order to be OK on mana? No guild is going to bring an rdruid if this is what you're implying is how we should play in order to be "fine".

Thing is, any rdruid no matter what spec or talent they choose, will be "fine" on mana if they aren't using rejuv excessively. But the thing is, we have to. There is nothing else for us to use.


Sadly, some of us are already doing this. I swiftmend on CD, and wild growth when 3+ people need a heal. I rejuv only when I *HAVE* to. I often so sit there going lalala to save mana. We're not fine, and I agree this wont really help druids. But since WG is our #1 right now I can see how it'd get a little more output.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
I... don't really understand, OP. You're saying that by favoring SoTF > Incarnation that you're able to conserve your mana better - which is the issue rdruids have right now - because you can rely on WG to do more healing for you? And your proof of such implications is because WG is doing #1 healing for you right now?

WG is already doing #1 healing for me right now. It's always fighting with rejuv to be #1, really. So, by going a SoTF spec instead of Incarnation, I'd see that I'd get more WG healing, sure... But it would not fix my problem. Or really any other rdruid's problem actually. It's not because WG isn't healing for enough, it's because it's on a CD and we have nothing else to use other than rejuv.

What you're implying here really is that we no longer spend time rejuving inbetween WGs. You're implying that in order to conserve our mana we need to either sit there and focus on tank healing or to place shrooms. Shrooms is by far so bad in terms of output that all that will do is show us doing less in terms of output by favoring WM over rejuv. So we do less healing in order to be OK on mana? No guild is going to bring an rdruid if this is what you're implying is how we should play in order to be "fine".

Thing is, any rdruid no matter what spec or talent they choose, will be "fine" on mana if they aren't using rejuv excessively. But the thing is, we have to. There is nothing else for us to use.


Sadly, some of us are already doing this. I swiftmend on CD, and wild growth when 3+ people need a heal. I rejuv only when I *HAVE* to. I often so sit there going lalala to save mana. We're not fine, and I agree this wont really help druids. But since WG is our #1 right now I can see how it'd get a little more output.

In heroic raiding, you use it so much more than you really can. There's simply nothing else in our toolset to choose from other than rejuv.
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90 Troll Druid
11195
I hate to say this (well not really) some people just don't think things through enough before spouting BS as evidence.

SotF has proved to be mediocre over Incarnation on a majority of fights. It matters not if you're sitting at 5730 (what you need for this SotF argument) haste because that measly 1 tick doesn't amount to much and it only effects WG. Get that? This isn't the pre-nerf 2005 break-point days with an extremely OP WG.

And If one can make it to 6652 you'd only gain SM over WG exclusively for the haste benefit. Just subtract potential lost Harmony in comparison if you want math. It isn't worth it even remotely for one spell hitting 3 people only some of the time compared to all your heals boosted all the time.

The tier 4pc is no bonanza either as you seem to neglect that fact that most if not all top guilds grabbed their PvP sets asap that reduced the CD to SM yet weren't reaching for the extra haste. Why? There is no data anywhere showing positively that taking from mastery or losing spirit was a benefit over keeping those stats. SotF without 5730 doesn't heal for anymore it simply applies it quicker (which WG should do by default imo).

Incarnation is a mana CD - it allows you to cast limitless LifeBlooms for 30 seconds and RGs. How someone thinks a hasted WG with one extra tick will help or be better against Incarnation is beyond me.
Edited by Moophious on 12/8/2012 11:37 PM PST
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90 Tauren Druid
10560
I hate to say this (well not really) some people just don't think things through enough before spouting BS as evidence.

SotF has proved to be mediocre over Incarnation on a majority of fights. It matters not if you're sitting at 5730 (what you need for this SotF argument) haste because that measly 1 tick doesn't amount to much and it only effects WG. Get that? This isn't the pre-nerf 2005 break-point days with an extremely OP WG.

The tier 4pc is no bonanza either as you seem to neglect that fact that most if not all top guilds grabbed their PvP sets asap that reduced the CD to SM yet weren't reaching for the extra haste. Why? There is no data anywhere showing positively that taking from mastery or losing spirit was a benefit over keeping those stats. SotF without 5730 doesn't heal for anymore it simply applies it quicker (which WG should do by default imo).

Incarnation is a mana CD - it allows you to cast limitless LifeBlooms for 30 seconds and RGs. How someone thinks a hasted WG with one extra tick will help or be better against Incarnation is beyond me.


I'm not sure I'm following how you're using the 5730 number here. That number is if you want 1 extra tick on WG during SOTF, but that's separate from the 4 extra ticks of WG (12 ticks total) that you get from using SOTF even at normal haste levels (i.e. 3043 with 5% haste). It's not the same overall healing that's just being applied quicker- the spell itself has gained additional healing ticks, which heals for about the same as every other tick, over the course of the 8 seconds. It effectively increases WG's healing by 50% when you use it with Switftmend.

Jumping from 3043 to 5730 haste is to get an extra tick on a SOTF'd WG, so you get 13 instead of 12. It's definitely not worth 2500ish mastery/spirit in exchange for 8% more healing out of WG and the ability to cast slightly faster Regrowths. On the other hand, you're not giving up anything for being at 3043, because that's where you want to be anyway for Rejuv/Tranq (the haste numbers for the 8th tick of a regular WG and 12th tick for a SOTF'd WG is much lower than 3043, somewhere around 1000).

I've seen a number of druids using SOTF with 4 piece on fights like H Shekzeer.
Edited by Pennoyer on 12/9/2012 12:34 AM PST
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90 Troll Druid
11195
12/08/2012 11:17 PMPosted by Pennoyer
I'm not sure I'm following how you're using the 5730 number here. That number is if you want 1 extra tick on WG during SOTF, but that's separate from the 4 extra ticks of WG (12 ticks total) that you get from using SOTF even at normal haste levels (i.e. 3043 with 5% haste).


I understand how it works and that's the whole point. We already know SotF has it's place on a limited number of encounters at 3043 haste without the added tick. It's not new news. But there are a lot of guys running around with haste gems striving for 5730 on a WildGrowth pursuit because they read a spreadsheet stating that's what you should strive for if you go for a 'main' SotF build.

My point is Incarnation is the default standard spec for a real reason - it's not cookie cutter because it is superior the majority of the time.
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
12/08/2012 11:35 PMPosted by Moophious
I understand how it works and that's the whole point. We already know SotF has it's place on a limited number of encounters at 3043 haste without the added tick. It's not new news.


But you make it sound as though WG with SotF at 3043 haste does the same total healing as WG without SotF at 3043 haste, and that's just not true.
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90 Tauren Druid
10560
I'm not sure I'm following how you're using the 5730 number here. That number is if you want 1 extra tick on WG during SOTF, but that's separate from the 4 extra ticks of WG (12 ticks total) that you get from using SOTF even at normal haste levels (i.e. 3043 with 5% haste).


I understand how it works and that's the whole point. We already know SotF has it's place on a limited number of encounters at 3043 haste without the added tick. It's not new news. But there are a lot of guys running around with haste gems striving for 5730 on a WildGrowth pursuit because they read a spreadsheet stating that's what you should strive for if you go for a 'main' SotF build.

My point is Incarnation is the default standard spec for a real reason - it's not cookie cutter because it is superior the majority of the time.


I guess I'm getting confused by this: "c: SotF with 3043 haste only applies the same amount of ticks for WG quicker (burst) but not for more healing. "

Unless I'm missing something incredible here, Sotf with 3043 haste does not apply the same amount of ticks as a non-Sotf WG (8 ticks). It applies 4 additional ticks (12 ticks total, 11 with no 5% buff), which heal for about as much as a non-SOTF'd WG's tick. If "not for more healing" means WG overall isn't healing for more, that's definitely wrong from what I can see. The additional 4 ticks themselves heal for about the same as the 8 ticks you'd normally get, if that's what you mean. For example, if a regular WG heals for 30k on a target, it will heal for 45k on that target with SOTF.

All of this has nothing to do with the 5730 haste number. Infact, the OP specifically pointed out that he was still running 3043, so not sure where it was brought up in this topic.

On fights where there is consistent raid damage throughout the fight, SOTF is a very viable option. A lot of druids gravitated towards Incarnation early on because of the nature of MSV's encounters (more burst than sustained healing required) and lack of spirit. Post 5.1, with more druids having 2 piece for mana savings, 4 piece to better line up SM and WG, more spirit overall, and having fights in HOF/Terrace, SOTF is definitely something to consider if you like the playstyle and what it brings in WG (or rejuv for periods of heavy tank damage only).
Edited by Pennoyer on 12/9/2012 12:34 AM PST
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90 Troll Druid
11195
12/08/2012 11:39 PMPosted by Anarri
I understand how it works and that's the whole point. We already know SotF has it's place on a limited number of encounters at 3043 haste without the added tick. It's not new news.


But you make it sound as though WG with SotF at 3043 haste does the same total healing as WG without SotF at 3043 haste, and that's just not true.


Yeah I got that but it's late and my head hurts haha.

It certainly is a mana saver in regards to the gylph and a bit from throughput. Casting 4 vs 7 per min is a pretty good savings but many people run the gylph standard already. But how one equates that savings vs Incarnation I'm not too certain. I know I can cast LB even Oom but can't say that with RJ>SM>WG.

We can talk till the cows come home about throughput from SotF but it should always be done while understanding what we're giving up in return on any fight.
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90 Tauren Druid
10560


But you make it sound as though WG with SotF at 3043 haste does the same total healing as WG without SotF at 3043 haste, and that's just not true.


Yeah I got that but it's late and my head hurts haha.

It certainly is a mana saver in regards to the gylph and a bit from throughput. Casting 4 vs 7 per min is a pretty good savings but many people run the gylph standard already. But how one equates that savings vs Incarnation I'm not too certain. I know I can cast LB even Oom but can't say that with RJ>SM>WG.

We can talk till the cows come home about throughput from SotF but it should always be done while understanding what we're giving up in return on any fight.


So you do realize that at 3043 haste, SOTF increases WG's healing by 50%? It just wasn't, and still isn't, very clear that you do, and it helps to make sure we're all on the same page about what exactly each talent brings before we can really compare them in a thread that's suggesting SOTF is better than Incarnation. Certainly, we should talk about whether your initial analysis, prefaced by a statement about people spouting BS without thinking, makes any sense in light of all of this.
Edited by Pennoyer on 12/9/2012 12:34 AM PST
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5 Human Warlock
0
I've gone to SOTF with my 4pc and WG glyph on our 10 man. CDs line up pretty well but it does take some practice to avoid wasting the proc. Since I run with a disc who can pretty much solo heal the raid even in our heroic progression runs, it frees me up to wait for the CD and save mana by avoiding Rejuv unless there's a lot of damage. It reminds me of Vanilla where we were support healers and could spot heal here and there while the priests and pallys did the heavy lifting.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10550
12/08/2012 04:06 PMPosted by Riddell
I do believe druids could use some love though, and I'm hoping we get that soon with buffed WM.


Agreed.

I still love playing my druid, but I feel that the healing was "better" in Cata in terms of I was using my entire toolkit then. Now we're foregoing HT, Nourish and in most cases WM just to be effective and competitive. It feels restrictive and almost boring.

I want a reason to use my entire toolkit again.
Edited by Sherbear on 12/9/2012 3:17 AM PST
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