WoW is not allowed to have strong females

2 Worgen Priest
0
12/08/2012 01:30 PMPosted by Lorthuron
Jaina's anger got curbed because Kalecgos was preventing her from going a line Jaina in rationality wouldn't ever cross. That doesn't make her weak.


I didn't say it made her weak, and I didn't isolate it as the Sole Issue either. I just listed it as a symptom of a larger pattern.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8230
I agree, but I feel that there is a gendered element to it still? I mean, even though characters like Thrall, Varian and Garrosh are being handled just as badly, they're still given weight in the plot. They're important, and it directly impacts the story. The women you mention, on the other hand, get paraded onstage to do their song and dance, but when the curtain closes it means nothing. Blizz went overboard building up how Jaina would So Totally Snap and Get Involved, but her rage in TOW was... curbed. She got mad, and then was given a man and a title to calm her down. (Although hopefully her actions re: Sunreavers will actually mean something.) Tyrande gets hauled out after gathering dust so long to... make a mistake that leaves no effect on anything, ever. She wasn't given any agency. Her actions, and their consequences, were completely negated by Varian's Big Hero Man Presence.


Not really. Garrosh is being made to take the fall as a giveaway to the Alliance, which is nice I guess in the "I'm glad that you noticed us" kind of way, but it doesn't get to the issues that we were complaining about in the future.

Thrall, Tirion, Malfurion, Varian, and Raynor (Yes, I'm throwing him in, as I said, this is a systemic problem) all suffer for different reasons though. They're world characters (with the exception of one, but he still has the same characteristics), they're always supposed to be right, super powerful, super smart, and generally "awesome", and Blizzard tries to show this by making their opponents and their friends look like idiots. Disagreements with them usually end with the revelation that the complainer was evil or stupid, and we move on without any sort of argument.

They all feel like author inserts as well, with the exception of Malfurion. Many of these characters are really the same character with a different coat of paint, and they displace what's going on with everything else in the story. Given what we know about Thrall, it wouldn't surprise me.

The displacement is the issue though. Just about every other character suffers as a result of being in the same scene as the world character, and this needs to stop.
Edited by Kyalin on 12/8/2012 1:40 PM PST
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90 Human Warrior
13615
12/08/2012 01:28 PMPosted by Lucithy
I agree, but I feel that there is a gendered element to it still? I mean, even though characters like Thrall, Varian and Garrosh are being handled just as badly, they're still given weight in the plot.


Jaina WAS given weight in the plot. Sylvanas was given weight in the plot, Tyrande has had weight in the plot.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8230
12/08/2012 01:38 PMPosted by Mordstreich
I agree, but I feel that there is a gendered element to it still? I mean, even though characters like Thrall, Varian and Garrosh are being handled just as badly, they're still given weight in the plot.


Jaina WAS given weight in the plot. Sylvanas was given weight in the plot, Tyrande has had weight in the plot.


My issue with Tyrande is that she doesn't even look like she belongs at the table. This person does not deserve to be leading anything, and whatever her previous characterization may have been, her current characterization makes you really wonder how the hell this person is leading a country.
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90 Human Warrior
13525
She belongs a heck a lot more then Garrosh Hellscream does.
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86 Tauren Death Knight
14655
That was actually refreshingly enlightening compared to how these threads normally go.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8230
12/08/2012 01:54 PMPosted by Lorthuron
She belongs a heck a lot more then Garrosh Hellscream does.


I was going to rebut, but let me just ask you this: why do you believe this? Can you explain how Tyrande brings more to her respective table than Garrosh does to his?
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90 Undead Death Knight
Req
14345
12/08/2012 01:28 PMPosted by Lucithy
The fedora is the fashion staple of dudebros who get pissy when anyone thinks critically about anything they like, and generally think that men are oppressed 'because women are evil friendzoning 'feminazis' and there's scientific evidence for that I swear I heard it from reddit'.
Well that's all well and good, but how do I fit in in all that?
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90 Human Mage
13505
12/08/2012 03:09 PMPosted by Kyalin
She belongs a heck a lot more then Garrosh Hellscream does.


I was going to rebut, but let me just ask you this: why do you believe this? Can you explain how Tyrande brings more to her respective table than Garrosh does to his?


Tyrande's no idiot. Garrosh is an idiot. I put Tyrande higher on the totem pole even if she's reckless and a bit... overzealous sometimes. Garrosh is just brainless
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2 Worgen Priest
0
12/08/2012 07:15 PMPosted by Vynathlon
Well that's all well and good, but how do I fit in in all that?


It was more a response to the guy you were quoting, honestly.
But your comment was more along the lines of 'UGH people examining things I like for parallels to real issues???" because media isn't created in a vacuum.
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19 Goblin Priest
0
In before... wait... nevermind.

What about, um... some of the dryads in Hyjal?
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90 Human Paladin
7745
12/08/2012 01:30 PMPosted by Lorthuron
Jaina's anger got curbed because Kalecgos was preventing her from going a line Jaina in rationality wouldn't ever cross. That doesn't make her weak.


It doesn't. In fact, that's why it happened. Tides of War changes Jaina a lot, and actually makes her consider just wiping out the Orcs. The problem with this, is that it would force that story forward too quickly, and Jaina would have completely departed from the character that people enjoy her as. That's a mistake.

Taking Theramore away from Jaina gives her nothing to lose, but adding Kalecgos to the story and giving them a personal dynamic allows him to ground her, and help her work through the situation rationally. It wouldn't have happened without another character's influence. Thrall was a bust for his own actions, Anduin she could dismiss as a child, and Varian would have come off as a complete hypocrite.

Let's look at that for a moment, really look at it.

A male character was added for the purpose of a female character's development.

I'm just going to leave it at that.
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90 Undead Death Knight
Req
14345
12/08/2012 07:43 PMPosted by Lucithy
Well that's all well and good, but how do I fit in in all that?


It was more a response to the guy you were quoting, honestly.
But your comment was more along the lines of 'UGH people examining things I like for parallels to real issues???" because media isn't created in a vacuum.
My response was more criticizing him for complaining about people talking about it and saying that if he thought this were outrageous that he should see how I'm feeling and see that it was nothing in comparison. I honestly don't have much opinion on the matter.
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90 Human Mage
13505
12/08/2012 08:05 PMPosted by Aurric
Jaina's anger got curbed because Kalecgos was preventing her from going a line Jaina in rationality wouldn't ever cross. That doesn't make her weak.


It doesn't. In fact, that's why it happened. Tides of War changes Jaina a lot, and actually makes her consider just wiping out the Orcs. The problem with this, is that it would force that story forward too quickly, and Jaina would have completely departed from the character that people enjoy her as. That's a mistake.

Taking Theramore away from Jaina gives her nothing to lose, but adding Kalecgos to the story and giving them a personal dynamic allows him to ground her, and help her work through the situation rationally. It wouldn't have happened without another character's influence. Thrall was a bust for his own actions, Anduin she could dismiss as a child, and Varian would have come off as a complete hypocrite.

Let's look at that for a moment, really look at it.

A male character was added for the purpose of a female character's development.

I'm just going to leave it at that.


I'm not really disagreeing with you. Just people whined about it.
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2 Worgen Priest
0
12/08/2012 08:05 PMPosted by Vynathlon
My response was more criticizing him for complaining about people talking about it and saying that if he thought this were outrageous that he should see how I'm feeling and see that it was nothing in comparison. I honestly don't have much opinion on the matter.

Then it's my fault for misreading. I'm sorry!
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90 Human Paladin
8315
Kerri Hicks is strong apparently
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90 Orc Death Knight
12465
12/07/2012 10:19 AMPosted by Noitora
there are a number of secondary female characters who would fit the descrption of strong characters. The main issue is they aren't very often centre stage.


^This.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
17875
Tinky Wickwhistle 2, my favorite character in the game is a strong WOW female. She's the EVIL gnome transporter clone in Borean Tundra and Icecrown.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8230
Tyrande's no idiot. Garrosh is an idiot. I put Tyrande higher on the totem pole even if she's reckless and a bit... overzealous sometimes. Garrosh is just brainless


See, I disagree with the idea that taking risks makes you reckless, or that standing for your people makes you overzealous, but again, you haven't really noted anything. I want to know what makes you believe that Tyrande is no idiot and that Garrosh is.

Don't conflate your personal disagreement over their objectives with their ability. I really want to know why, if you're going to make this argument in this thread, Tyrande deserves to be a faction leader. What does she bring to the table? How is she not an idiot?

Provide examples, not statements. I want to see the contrast instead of just taking your word for it.
Edited by Kyalin on 12/9/2012 9:04 AM PST
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90 Human Warrior
13615
12/09/2012 09:00 AMPosted by Kyalin
See, I disagree with the idea that taking risks makes you reckless, or that standing for your people makes you overzealous, but again, you haven't really noted anything.


You say this, and then condemn Tyrande's actions and motivations in A Little Patience. Which one is it?
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