Can DKs get a little utility?

90 Dwarf Death Knight
16570
So this DK is far and away my favorite character to play and to tank with. Between playing them myself or tanking beside them I have some knowledge of the other tanks as well and I would like to see DKs get a little help in the utility department. We offer nowhere near the utility other tanks bring.

utility comparison-
DK-
10% attack power-
anti magic shell- this cooldown is very situational, damage must be magic damage, requires the raid to be stacked, and requires the damage to be in 1 big pulse because staggered damage will cause it to break early- also is a talent coice that requires the DK to sacrifice a very strong personal cooldown
battle rez- this is a nice one admittedly
glyph of deathcoil- this I'm listing just to be complete. It costs 40 rp and .45 of a rune to put a shield on someone for something like 13k. It's crap and no one uses it

Warrior (my current co-tank)-
10% attack power
10% stamina (mutually exclusive with the attack power)
sunder armor
rallying cry
banners- 3 different ones to choose from- a raid dps cd, a raid damage reduction cd, or an oh crap aoe threat cd
shattering throw
safeguard- requires a talent choice to provide this cd but it's in a utility tier and the warrior doesn't sacrficie much to take it

Paladin-
stats buff
mastery buff (mutually exclusive with stats)
various hands that are useful but situational
lots of offhealing-pally heals can always be cast on another if desired, but they also have some abilities intended to heal others
bubble- yes this is a person cd but it has been used in almost every raid tier to cheese an encounter mechanic or 2
devotion aura

Druid-
stats buff
sunder armor
5% crit
stampeding roar- very situation but a big help on some fights
offhealing capabilities
brez- has some restrictions on using it but can be glyphed to rez ally with 100% health (DKs do not have this option)

Monk- admittedly I know much less about monks than the other tanks and this list is probably incomplete
stats buff
mastery buff (mutually exclusive with stats)
lots of offhealing- ox statue heals allies passively and some of their abilities are designed to heal others

I really don't know why DKs provide so much less utility than the other tanks. In a 10 man group it can be very difficult to get all the buffs and it would be nice to bring something to the table.

If Blizzard's fear is not wanting to strengthen an already strong soloing class than give us stuff that helps the raid but not us. One of the spell related buffs maybe, or make vampyric blood affect the raid for 50% of what it does to us like in DS. Atleast a glyph to improve our brez. Something.

What are your thoughts?
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15680
Aoe death grip is pretty useful.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
SWC
18785
DKs have offensive dispel, bloodworms healing, and spell cast reduction and healing absorb, and occasionally dark sim. Many are situational but they can be valuable.
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
16570
The abilities you two have mentioned are handy in pvp and 5 mans, but not in raids. Bloodworm healing cannot be controlled and usually are out of range to heal anyone. Maloriak is the last raid boss I recall that required an offensive dispel. I can't think of any boss that cast speed reduction worked on.

I intentionally left out things like charges, stuns, knockbacks, etc. because they generally have no use in raids.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15680
12/09/2012 08:49 PMPosted by Boneshatter
I intentionally left out things like charges, stuns, knockbacks, etc. because they generally have no use in raids.


Now thats just silly
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90 Human Paladin
13175
12/09/2012 05:19 PMPosted by Boneshatter
bubble- yes this is a person cd but it has been used in almost every raid tier to cheese an encounter mechanic or 2


You can't include this and ignore AMS, which is pretty much uniquely powerful as far as magical damage goes.

glyph of deathcoil- this I'm listing just to be complete. It costs 40 rp and .45 of a rune to put a shield on someone for something like 13k. It's crap and no one uses it


It shields for ~50% of AP and as near as I can tell from fiddling about with my DK, it scales with Vengeance. That's much more substantial than you're indicating in most raid situations.

12/09/2012 05:19 PMPosted by Boneshatter
anti magic shell- this cooldown is very situational, damage must be magic damage, requires the raid to be stacked, and requires the damage to be in 1 big pulse because staggered damage will cause it to break early- also is a talent coice that requires the DK to sacrifice a very strong personal cooldown


Pretty much every cooldown has some significant drawback - Demoralizing Banner works against physical and magical damage...unless the source can't actually be debuffed (e.g. Titan Gas). Demoralizing Banner is also markedly weaker than most other cooldowns. Tranquility and Divine Hymn require your healer to remain stationary, stop whatever else they might be doing (including, you know, other healing, which cuts into the gains from the spells substantially) and don't prevent damage, they only heal it up after the fact. Devotion Aura prevents damage, but doesn't work against physical. Etc. Everything's got limitations. AMZ probably prevents less magical damage than Devotion Aura in most situations...but it's not that much less than Devo Aura, it has a much shorter cooldown, and against large bursts that come in a single hit, it'll crush Devotion Aura every time. It doesn't work against physical damage like Demo Banner, but will almost certainly beat it in any magical situation, and has a shorter cooldown. Etc.
Edited by Branar on 12/9/2012 10:13 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
The abilities you two have mentioned are handy in pvp and 5 mans, but not in raids. Bloodworm healing cannot be controlled and usually are out of range to heal anyone. Maloriak is the last raid boss I recall that required an offensive dispel. I can't think of any boss that cast speed reduction worked on.

I intentionally left out things like charges, stuns, knockbacks, etc. because they generally have no use in raids.


Have you raided in the last 3 or 4 years?

There are 3 encounters this tier alone where offensive Dispels make an impact. Slows and Stuns completely make or trivialise even more fights, particularly RMW, and GG is also good in several situations.
Edited by Slashlove on 12/9/2012 11:06 PM PST
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90 Orc Warrior
10130
Battle Rez and Anti-Magic Shell are the two rarest raid CD's.

I don't get what you're asking for. Would you like Bloodlust? I think then there would be 5 classes with BL.
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90 Draenei Paladin
15075
Tsulong has a lot of the stuff you're ignoring, Magic absorb is handy, Magic Ignoring (AMS) is handy, stuns, are handy, offensive dispels, also hand, battle rez, handy..

And for the record my LOH does not WORK on Tsulong :(, but i'm betting bloodworm heal does.

Each tank has their own quirks.. good or bad, there's not really and any PERFECT tank.

also..

Dragonsoul says hi.
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14 Dwarf Hunter
30
12/10/2012 01:40 PMPosted by Barfus
Dragonsoul says hi.


HAHA

every time i get down about my DK tank, i sit back and think of Dragon Soul.
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90 Orc Death Knight
8835
AMZ is pretty awesome.
Gorefiend's and Remorseless Winter have their uses, too.

Still though, a lot of it doesn't directly benefit the raid like healing tide or devotion aura, so people are less likely to notice it.

I wish we had a raid-wide version of Vampiric Blood (increase healing taken), since Warriors have the HP increase. Even if it was a small value like 10% for 10 seconds or less, at least it would give us a noticable raid CD.
Edited by Zionic on 12/10/2012 2:08 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
10960
I'm a huge fan of the raid utility I can provide in the form of extra heals. Not that I'm going to heal you, but that the healer often doesn't have to attend to me so you get more of his/her attention. :P

Seriously though, AMZ is far better than you give it credit for, Army is a raid cd in the right situation (elegon phase transition anyone?),death grip is situational but we're the only ones who have it, debuffs from diseases, and all of the other options people have mentioned. We have a nice toolbox. I think our options are just less obvious than big CDs like lust, Hand of X, and stampeding roar.

We've got tools that other tanks don't and vice versa. Be happy and enjoy our bloody goodness.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Still though, a lot of it doesn't directly benefit the raid like healing tide or devotion aura, so people are less likely to notice it.


Wat?

They translate directly into improved damage or damage reduction.
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90 Orc Death Knight
8835
Wat?

They translate directly into improved damage or damage reduction.

People call for healing tide and devo aura when they're needed, usually at specific times during a fight and on a rotation.

Nobody ever calls for AMZ, except maybe on Total Annihilation.
Personal experience, though.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15680
Nobody ever calls for AMZ, except maybe on Total Annihilation.
Personal experience, though.


So, your raid leader not calling for a cooldown makes it not noticeable?

Our druid tranqs on her own for most fights, that doesn't make it not a hilariously strong CD.
Edited by Ðemolition on 12/10/2012 4:01 PM PST
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90 Orc Death Knight
8835
12/10/2012 04:00 PMPosted by Ðemolition
So, your raid leader not calling for a cooldown makes it not noticeable?

In short, yes.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
People call for healing tide and devo aura when they're needed, usually at specific times during a fight and on a rotation.

Nobody ever calls for AMZ, except maybe on Total Annihilation.
Personal experience, though.


PEBKAC error, Your Raid Leader is bad, <insert other reason here>

As a 25-man raid back when AMZ was a talent, we used it for significant power with calls, and Army calls were almost as important when it came to squeezing things in.

If we had a DK, we'd be flipping overjoyed from how hilariously powerful the combination of AMZ, Army, RMW/GG etc. are.
Edited by Slashlove on 12/10/2012 4:21 PM PST
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90 Orc Death Knight
8835
PEBKAC error, Your Raid Leaders are bad, <insert other reason here

FTFY.
Multiple raid groups, never had anyone ask for it. To be fair the only fights I use it on are Elegon normal and Tsulong, and it's quality of life on both -- I wouldn't say it's ever saved a life. Purgatory everywhere else, since keeping myself alive through death is more important than a tick of magic absorb.

If we had a DK, we'd be flipping overjoyed from how hilariously powerful the combination of AMZ

Where? What fights?
It's only useful for absorbing burst magic damage in one spot.

Remorseless winter on elegon adds, that's it. Also useful in a clutch on Empress adds, depending how you handle them... even then it's not a raid CD, since in both cases it only helps save my life, and doesn't do anything for the raid itself.

Gorefiend's on Feng Heroic adds, that's it. I've seen discussion about Maddening Shout but with Undying Shadows it can instantly cause a wipe.

So really, in simplest terms, each of the DK's talentable CD's are each only useful on 1 fight in particular.

That fact that no one has asked for it should be an indicator how useless it is -- if the talent were good then people would notice, and actively suggest you use it. Although that might be more of an indicator of how OP Purgatory is, at least for Blood. If you have a Frost DK then you might have something to work with.

If we're strictly talking about preventing wipes, then as Blood, Purgatory is literally the only choice.
Edited by Zionic on 12/10/2012 4:32 PM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
15075
People call for healing tide and devo aura when they're needed, usually at specific times during a fight and on a rotation.

Nobody ever calls for AMZ, except maybe on Total Annihilation.
Personal experience, though.


PEBKAC error, Your Raid Leader is bad, <insert other reason here>

As a 25-man raid back when AMZ was a talent, we used it for significant power with calls, and Army calls were almost as important when it came to squeezing things in.

If we had a DK, we'd be flipping overjoyed from how hilariously powerful the combination of AMZ, Army, RMW/GG etc. are.


We only have 1 dk in our 25 man group, and to be honest he doesn't always make raids.. i guess my guild isn't the only one with a lack of red in the raid frames
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