Can DKs get a little utility?

90 Orc Death Knight
8835
if the tank dies, the raid wipes. Not sure how you can say that's not useful for the raid

This thread is about raid CD's, not personal CD's.
I've only ever found a use for Remorseless Winter as a personal CD -- it helps save my life the same way IBF does.

Is IBF a raid CD?
Come on now, guys.

doesn't change the fact that your RLs are bad if they don't use AMZ

And... where would they use it, exactly?
Keep in mind, it would involve me dumping Purgatory so it has to be a situation where I'm comfortable risking my own death to help soak a magic burst for the raid.
Edited by Zionic on 12/10/2012 4:56 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
10960
And... where would they use it, exactly?
Keep in mind, it would involve me dumping Purgatory so it has to be a situation where I'm comfortable risking my own death to help soak a magic burst for the raid


Purgatory is only good for fights you don't really know well yet, so you might not know how to manage cds. Once you know them there is rarely a reason to keep purgatory. DC heals is a much more compelling cd if you are having trouble staying up.

Garalon comes to mind for good fights for amz (if your ranged are stacked and on boss instead of legs), It's super handy for all phases of Feng, very helpful for garajal since spirits do magic damage, not required but still handy for spirit kings during maddening shout, very good for elegon and total annihilation, it is also nice for blade lord during phase 2 when people are stacked and one or more of your healers are having trouble navigating tornadoes.

edit: I guess Purgatory is nice for blade lord if your dbm timers get messed up as often as mine do and you miss defensive cds for the 2nd stack of overwhelming assault.
Edited by Arrastos on 12/10/2012 5:04 PM PST
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94 Pandaren Warrior
16150
And... where would they use it, exactly?


Any fight with magic damage.

This thread is about raid CD's, not personal CD's.
I've only ever found a use for Remorseless Winter as a personal CD -- it helps save my life the same way IBF does.


Feng clones don't kill the tank, but they can effectively wipe you. Although GG is arguably more useful if you already have 2 aoe stuns to use.
Edited by Ðemolition on 12/10/2012 5:08 PM PST
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90 Orc Death Knight
8835
12/10/2012 05:02 PMPosted by Arrastos
Purgatory is only good for fights you don't really know well yet, so you might not know how to manage cds. Once you know them there is rarely a reason to keep purgatory. DC heals is a much more compelling cd if you are having trouble staying up.

Me, or the entire group?
If a DPS screws up and stands in something and takes damage, a healer has to give him attention, which could cause me to die.

Or a healer could screw up. Out-of-range, who knows.

Any fight with magic damage.

Well, let me put it this way: By taking Purgatory, I have prevented more wipes than AMZ could have.

Whether that's a reflection of my failures, my healers' failures, or even the DPS' failures, is irrelevant, if we're just talking about getting bosses down.

In a perfect world, absorbing 140k of ticking magic damage (which is possible on most fights) might be worthwhile, but Purgatory is a "somebody messed up but it's okay for now" CD and honestly it's usefulness vastly outweighs AMZ in almost every situation.

If you think otherwise, well... That's your opinion. And you're wrong. ;)

edit:
Sorry about the deleted post, I needed to re-word my post and I didn't want anyone misquoting me.
Edited by Zionic on 12/10/2012 5:26 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Where? What fights?
It's only useful for absorbing burst magic damage in one spot.


No, those are the situations it's "performing above expectations" in a way that Blizzard can't really fix without making some extremely clumsy checks on.

Elegon's Total Annihilation isn't a particularly good example of "burst damage with raid stacked" either because TA is not just a joke, but unless you're finished a phase transition people won't be stacked up where you are (unless you're by the ranged).

Remorseless winter on elegon adds, that's it. Also useful in a clutch on Empress adds, depending how you handle them... even then it's not a raid CD, since in both cases it only helps save my life, and doesn't do anything for the raid itself.

Gorefiend's on Feng Heroic adds, that's it. I've seen discussion about Maddening Shout but with Undying Shadows it can instantly cause a wipe.

So really, in simplest terms, each of the DK's talentable CD's are each only useful on 1 fight in particular.


Wat?

They have use on Elegon, Feng, Will, Shek'zeer, Lei Shi and Tsulong, quite probably Protectors and Sha Heroic and that's not trying to pad with fringe cases.

In a perfect world, absorbing 140k of ticking magic damage (which is possible on most fights) might be worthwhile, but Purgatory is a "somebody messed up but it's okay for now" CD and honestly it's usefulness vastly outweighs AMZ in almost every situation.


That's fine for you to have that opinion. THat is after all the entire point of the talent system - to make choices like that.

But concluding that because you feel it's not as useful is not the same as the raid cooldown not being worthwhile just because your raid leader instinctively never calls out for it (Hell, our old raid leader called out "Barrier" for every situation that demanded a raid cooldown, but that didn't mean Barrier was the only useful raid cooldown, it just meant he was a Priest - just like half the time I say DP up when I'm actually meaning GoAK up).

Not does it translate to Death Knights needing "more" utility.

even then it's not a raid CD, since in both cases it only helps save my life


That logic doesn't actually wash. Using an ability that affects mobs in a way that helps you and by definition your raid doesn't somehow change it into "personal cooldown".

The point of a raid cooldown is that you can use it not just on yourself. There is after all nothing stopping you from RW'ing or GG'ing for control for the raid's benefit (Snared/Stunned Adds don't do X), or on adds that are being tanked by the other tank (especially if your raid's strat on Shek'zeer involves killing all on one tank or split-kill-collapse, or anything like that)
Edited by Slashlove on 12/10/2012 5:52 PM PST
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90 Orc Death Knight
8835
12/10/2012 05:33 PMPosted by Slashlove
Not does it translate to Death Knights needing "more" utility.

I would like to see AMZ buffed, because in its current state I would actually tell some RL's "no" if they asked me to take it over Purgatory on almost every fight.

It would take a serious buff to AMZ for me to consider it viable. As in, an actual option. Because right now it's not an option for me, almost ever. Even on fights where it should be an option.

This might change farther into heroic progression.
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100 Human Paladin
14025
This thread is about raid CD's, not personal CD's.
I've only ever found a use for Remorseless Winter as a personal CD -- it helps save my life the same way IBF does.

Is IBF a raid CD?
Come on now, guys.


Well, let me put it this way: By taking Purgatory, I have prevented more wipes than AMZ could have.

Whether that's a reflection of my failures, my healers' failures, or even the DPS' failures, is irrelevant, if we're just talking about getting bosses down.


I hope you see the contradiction in

(a) complaining that Remorseless Winter "doesn't count" as raid utility because it's basically a personal survivability CD

while simultaneously

(b) telling us all how you pick Purgatory because it helps your raid more than the "raid utility" alternative.

The only thing you seem to have illustrated to me is that personal survivability boosts are sometimes more valuable than raid cooldowns. DKs can swap AMZ for an additional personal survivability boost; warriors and paladins can't. I'm sure there are plenty of fights this tier where you'd see warrior and paladin tanks ditching Demoralizing Banner and Devotion Aura for Purgatory or a similar talent, if that were an option available.

It would take a serious buff to AMZ for me to consider it viable. As in, an actual option. Because right now it's not an option for me, almost ever. Even on fights where it should be an option.


How much more damage than Devotion Aura or Demoralizing Banner do you feel it needs to stop before it's worth taking? Because from everything I've seen there are numerous situations this tier where it prevents a similar amount of damage (and a few situations where it's useless, a few where it's slightly worse than "average", and a few where it's the best choice - just like most cooldowns, basically).
Edited by Branar on 12/10/2012 6:10 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
It would take a serious buff to AMZ for me to consider it viable. As in, an actual option. Because right now it's not an option for me, almost ever. Even on fights where it should be an option.


All you're actually going towards with this is "AMZ needs to be OP to the point that my raid leader starts thinking I WANT AMZ NAO, otherweise it's totally useless", or "Nerf Purgatory, it too stronk".
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94 Pandaren Warrior
16150
12/10/2012 05:52 PMPosted by Zionic
I would like to see AMZ buffed, because in its current state I would actually tell some RL's "no" if they asked me to take it over Purgatory on almost every fight.


Good point.

Purgatory does need to be nerfed
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
6755
So this DK is far and away my favorite character to play and to tank with. Between playing them myself or tanking beside them I have some knowledge of the other tanks as well and I would like to see DKs get a little help in the utility department. We offer nowhere near the utility other tanks bring.

utility comparison-
DK-
10% attack power-
anti magic shell- this cooldown is very situational, damage must be magic damage, requires the raid to be stacked, and requires the damage to be in 1 big pulse because staggered damage will cause it to break early- also is a talent coice that requires the DK to sacrifice a very strong personal cooldown
battle rez- this is a nice one admittedly
glyph of deathcoil- this I'm listing just to be complete. It costs 40 rp and .45 of a rune to put a shield on someone for something like 13k. It's crap and no one uses it

Warrior (my current co-tank)-
10% attack power
10% stamina (mutually exclusive with the attack power)
sunder armor
rallying cry
banners- 3 different ones to choose from- a raid dps cd, a raid damage reduction cd, or an oh crap aoe threat cd
shattering throw
safeguard- requires a talent choice to provide this cd but it's in a utility tier and the warrior doesn't sacrficie much to take it

Paladin-
stats buff
mastery buff (mutually exclusive with stats)
various hands that are useful but situational
lots of offhealing-pally heals can always be cast on another if desired, but they also have some abilities intended to heal others
bubble- yes this is a person cd but it has been used in almost every raid tier to cheese an encounter mechanic or 2
devotion aura

Druid-
stats buff
sunder armor
5% crit
stampeding roar- very situation but a big help on some fights
offhealing capabilities
brez- has some restrictions on using it but can be glyphed to rez ally with 100% health (DKs do not have this option)

Monk- admittedly I know much less about monks than the other tanks and this list is probably incomplete
stats buff
mastery buff (mutually exclusive with stats)
lots of offhealing- ox statue heals allies passively and some of their abilities are designed to heal others

I really don't know why DKs provide so much less utility than the other tanks. In a 10 man group it can be very difficult to get all the buffs and it would be nice to bring something to the table.

If Blizzard's fear is not wanting to strengthen an already strong soloing class than give us stuff that helps the raid but not us. One of the spell related buffs maybe, or make vampyric blood affect the raid for 50% of what it does to us like in DS. Atleast a glyph to improve our brez. Something.

What are your thoughts?


dks do have utility,its just that you picked to spec like a heroic raid pver,lately i been seeing ppl spec like this all the time. just spec like i do and you can fluidly handle any problem(switch purgatory to AMZ in some cases)
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
10960
If you think otherwise, well... That's your opinion. And you're wrong. ;)


Who knows? Maybe when my raid group gets into heroic content like you I'll find the "ohsht" cd more useful than dc-heals. Of course having an IBF or AMS or even Vamp blood ready before crap hits the fan usually negates the need for a 2nd-chance at life. Perhaps it's a difference in play style but the majority of the fights don't include mechanics where 3-4 seconds of healer distraction should equate to dead dk.

There's not doubt that purgatory can prevent a wipe, especially if your healers know they can count on it. Also, If I know I'm going to be taking too much big bursty damage you can bet that I'm going to spec into it. I just don't see it as the clear winner in as many fights as you claim. I'd take a big dc-heal or the ability to mitigate almost 200k magic damage on a 2-min cd over preventing 1 oops-death per attempt.

I'm flexible though. If I actually start dying before the majority of my raid group I would take purgatory then as well. Is this the case for you or are you just overly cautious?
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90 Orc Warrior
10025
Well, let me put it this way: By taking Purgatory, I have prevented more wipes than AMZ could have.


That talent is probably too powerful then.
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90 Draenei Paladin
15075
12/10/2012 07:19 PMPosted by Ðemolition
I would like to see AMZ buffed, because in its current state I would actually tell some RL's "no" if they asked me to take it over Purgatory on almost every fight.


Good point.

Purgatory does need to be nerfed


isn't it what AD used to be before they made it "more fun to press a button" AD?
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100 Night Elf Warrior
17870


Good point.

Purgatory does need to be nerfed


isn't it what AD used to be before they made it "more fun to press a button" AD?


Yes and no. Purgatory prevents no damage overall, while AD was effectively worth some variable amount of damage reduction based on the overkill size. Purgatory is of limited use for eating things you aren't supposed to for some benefit, though they are getting better about making death prevention effects not work on those either. On the other hand, Purgatory does ensure 3 seconds of living no matter what, though if in the end you die it probably doesn't matter.

Still, the share(d) the most important part, being auto-firing survivability cooldowns. Where they shine the most is when tank damage is consistently high and its not feasible to have cooldowns up for all the threatening parts. Its not necessarily a balance problem, really, but an auto firing safety net is a really nice thing to have.
Edited by Asthas on 12/11/2012 2:45 AM PST
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100 Undead Death Knight
12265
"We offer nowhere near the utility other tanks bring".

amen
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
AMZ is pretty situational: It's useful on one fight so far, and we still have to exploit a bug to get it to be worth casting. Additionally - and, in my mind, more importantly - we need to give up a *huge* personal cooldown to get it.

When the choice is "DK Lay on Hands" "DK Ardent Defender" or "crappy anti-magic raid CD" it's hard to make a convincing argument that I should take AMZ.

That said, I don't actually think our raid utility is that terrible, and is by far the most potent in challenge modes. Could it be better? Yeah, but I wouldn't call it bad. Someone has to be best at something, after all.
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90 Draenei Paladin
15075
oh i'd also like to add this here since i read it earlier in the thread

Divine Shield does not remove as many things as people think it removes, blizzard has become sneaky and made it so popping Divine Shield does NOT remove a lot of raid mechanics now.
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100 Pandaren Monk
11595

Monk- admittedly I know much less about monks than the other tanks and this list is probably incomplete
stats buff
mastery buff (mutually exclusive with stats)
lots of offhealing- ox statue heals allies passively and some of their abilities are designed to heal others

What are your thoughts?


True we do get a Stats buff, although this doesn't buff Mastery (just Str, Agi and Int). When will my Ox statue start healing others? Mine will toss 1 shield on a random party member after I do something like 500,000 damage. I do get to heal myself, through some orbs that appear to my left and right; these will stick around for a while and can fully heal me if I grab all that have spawned.

Zen Meditation can be helpful but if I'm smacked in the face, the utility ability is cancelled immediately. About my only Raid utility is Avert Harm, which is pretty good but is dispelled if I drop below 10% hp. That gives me what 1, maybe 2 utility spells (2nd only useful if the boss isn't on me.)

I don't have much raid experience on this toon but I don't believe I missed anything for the Monk class.
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90 Night Elf Druid
6280
No one ever calls for Tranq...you just notice that everyone is dying and do it.
No one calls for Innervate anymore either (because it's not as useful but it does only have a 3min CD) so you just pick a healer and do it.

Brez will probably get called for. You are 1/2 of the tanks that possess this.

12/11/2012 11:13 AMPosted by Dkaye
We offer nowhere near the utility other tanks bring

And yet there are still a million of you guys swarming all over the place.
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