it's not fun to heal if no one takes damage

90 Human Warrior
10630
So I love healing. I actually just switched my main raiding toon to my resto druid to help my raid out. But I don't enjoy healing at all when I'm with a dis priest.
Anytime big damage is about to go out, they just use spirit shell before andbhardly anyone takes damage D: Windlord is a great example. for EVERY SINGLE fan of knives (or whatever that ability is) Spirit shell is avaible and no one takes damage lol.

EDIT: I should mention i'm in a 10 man guild and most fights are tuned for 2 healers - 2 tanks - 6 dps.
Resto druid and disc priest as the 2 healers.


How am I supposed to heal when no one is taking damage D: lol. I liked when mistweavers were stupid OP instead of disc priests. At least then if I was fast enough I could heal the raid before the monk XD!

What are your guys thoughts on the current state of disc priests?
Edited by Musicxd on 12/10/2012 3:58 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
17295
Spirit Shell is probably going to get the nerf bat, probably increased CD or something.
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90 Draenei Priest
9355
I agree.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GA_ufdTQqI#t=179s

I know you're talking about something different -- I'm talking about heroics, you're talking about raids -- but the same thing still applies. It's not fun to be the healer when nobody is taking damage.

I really don't like how much tanks shield and heal themselves, which is just the same thing as being shielded all day by a disc priest.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
This is only an issue when there is little to no damage going out. Spirit shell is not so significantly overpowered that it completely takes the place of 3 or 5 healers, if it did you probably wouldn't be invited to the raid at all. The thing you are complaining about here is not a reason for spirit shell to be nerfed.

I'm not saying spirit shell isn't powerful, possibly too much so, but your complaint is that disc priests are essentially calling first dibs on minor damage, which is exactly what disc should do.

The better solution is to have more damage, more often. Make healers work near 100% of the time in much the same way that DPS have to work 100% of the time, and make the mana pools support it instead of having the mana pools require that there be downtime. Basically that's the core of the problem: the mana model. Fights have to be designed so that everybody has time to regen, which means downtime, which means time when no one takes damage or takes so little that spirit shell and divine aegis can stop it all.

On the bright side it's virtually guaranteed not to be an issue in later tiers because mana regen will be expected to be stronger for everyone and the fights will be geared both to take advantage of it and require it. I just wish they would get it out of their heads that mana should be a healer's number 1 concern, it doesn't work for DPS and it will never work well for us either.
Edited by Sotanaht on 12/10/2012 12:23 AM PST
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90 Draenei Priest
9355
This is only an issue when there is little to no damage going out. Spirit shell is not so significantly overpowered that it completely takes the place of 3 or 5 healers, if it did you probably wouldn't be invited to the raid at all. The thing you are complaining about here is not a reason for spirit shell to be nerfed.

I'm not saying spirit shell isn't powerful, possibly too much so, but your complaint is that disc priests are essentially calling first dibs on minor damage, which is exactly what disc should do.

The better solution is to have more damage, more often. Make healers work near 100% of the time in much the same way that DPS have to work 100% of the time, and make the mana pools support it instead of having the mana pools require that there be downtime. Basically that's the core of the problem: the mana model. Fights have to be designed so that everybody has time to regen, which means downtime, which means time when no one takes damage or takes so little that spirit shell and divine aegis can stop it all.


The point is that shields make it un-fun for other healers. Whether you think its okay just because the disc isn't preventing 100% of all damage, most of the damage, or just a 'fair chunk of the damage' is beside the point.

Less absorbs, more fun, and vice versa.

On the bright side it's virtually guaranteed not to be an issue in later tiers because mana regen will be expected to be stronger for everyone and the fights will be geared both to take advantage of it and require it. I just wish they would get it out of their heads that mana should be a healer's number 1 concern, it doesn't work for DPS and it will never work well for us either.


I think mana works well for a one healer environment, and can be extended to include raids only if there is much more basic heals (i.e. most heals are single target, a la vanilla). I really do take great joy in managing my mana well when I am healing alone.

I see what you're asking for as a return to WOTLK style spamming. Eww.
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90 Pandaren Priest
12265
I agree with the OP and im the only disc priest in our raids. I love holy but i play disc because like it or not it's overpowered for progression raiding at the moment. I really do feel bad for the other healers when i SS the whole raid and completely shut down incoming damage.

speaking from a 25m PoV btw
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90 Pandaren Priest
8065
12/09/2012 11:44 PMPosted by Hardlÿ
Spirit Shell is probably going to get the nerf bat, probably increased CD or something.


I seriously hope this doesn't happen. I would understand a nerf to SS (maybe don't make it scale off of Mastery as well as it does), but right now it's Disc's only CD of consequence for extreme damage situations. And even then consider that it's a proactive ability that shuts us out of all other healing for a min. of 5 seconds (to blanket a 10m with 1 stack, usually you do nothing but blanket for the full SS duration to keep the timer refreshed).

I won't overreact and say something like "omg im quitting disc if ss is nerfed", but considering they took Divine Hymn away from us, and Barrier doesn't increase healing received (plus is a much more situational CD given its timer / proximity-based behavior), I don't feel like SS is particularly overpowered.

Disc is good for progression (and always has been at least since the PWS buff/nerf/fix at the beginning of Cata) when played competently in fights where spike damage is predictable. On the other hand, there are situations that Disc is really weak, for example when damage is unpredictable and raid-wide. In this case, it's both tough to justify PoH when only 1-2 people are getting hit per group, and the ramp up time of Grace stacks makes it not only easier, but more efficient for other healers to excel in those situations. The patch to Atonement extending its range in some ways alleviated this pain, but smart heals - while convenient - are not reliable for the progression healing situation I'm discussing. This isn't something that's really wrong with Disc in my mind, it's just an inherent weakness we have.

tl;dr I don't feel like the SS CD is OP at the moment.

12/09/2012 11:30 PMPosted by Musicxd
How am I supposed to heal when no one is taking damage D: lol. I liked when mistweavers were stupid OP instead of disc priests. At least then if I was fast enough I could heal the raid before the monk XD!


I feel like this is a somewhat hyperbolic statement. If you're raiding progression content (stuff on farm is a moot point because at that point who cares, it's free loot), SS is not powerful enough to mitigate all healing while up (ie. tanks take damage disproportionately to the rest of the raid, or you bubble tanks at the expense of raid heals), and the *maximum* uptime you can have is 50%, which while sounds like a lot, is impossible in practice.


On the bright side it's virtually guaranteed not to be an issue in later tiers because mana regen will be expected to be stronger for everyone and the fights will be geared both to take advantage of it and require it. I just wish they would get it out of their heads that mana should be a healer's number 1 concern, it doesn't work for DPS and it will never work well for us either.


I think mana works well for a one healer environment, and can be extended to include raids only if there is much more basic heals (i.e. most heals are single target, a la vanilla). I really do take great joy in managing my mana well when I am healing alone.

I see what you're asking for as a return to WOTLK style spamming. Eww.


There's a difference between having enough damage / mana to feel compelled to heal intelligently the entire fight, and WOTLK FH spamming. The former is fun, the latter not. We'll never see FH spam again because its HPS isn't really that strong, it's just a very fast heal. Similarly with PoH, without the appropriate ramp-up (AA / PWS for BT), PoH isn't an intelligent use of time.
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90 Undead Priest
18735
12/10/2012 01:12 AMPosted by Dominish
Less absorbs, more fun, and vice versa.


What about those players that enjoy absorbs and/or aiding in their own healing?
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90 Human Warlock
5835
dragon slayers........
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
12/10/2012 09:20 AMPosted by Natal
There's a difference between having enough damage / mana to feel compelled to heal intelligently the entire fight, and WOTLK FH spamming. The former is fun, the latter not. We'll never see FH spam again because its HPS isn't really that strong, it's just a very fast heal. Similarly with PoH, without the appropriate ramp-up (AA / PWS for BT), PoH isn't an intelligent use of time.


There is a pretty big misunderstanding about WotLK healing, it makes me wonder if the people who complain actually played it, or if it's been so long they honestly forgot. It's something that's been on my mind continuously as blizzard has altered healing systems so I sure as hell haven't forgotten.

First, it was never, EVER flash heal spam. Flash heal was about as low on the priority in both specs as Gheal is now. Given a choice between the two I would prefer it to return to it's former position, given that it is much more fun to heal with faster spells than slower ones, all other things being equal.

It was also never purely shieldspam. At it's peak, PWS and its glyph were doing roughly 70% of a disc priests healing, which isn't that far from what PoH is doing now with its divine aegis and spirit shell applications. In wrath it was PWS, penance, PoM, and Flash heal. Surely this could have been improved, sadly they have just gone and made it worse by replacing PWS with an altogether worse and less fun spell in the same spam position.

The intense and fast-paced healing environment of Wrath, though not necessarily the spell choices, are indeed what I would prefer healing to return to.
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90 Human Priest
13380
Agree with OP. Yeah, normals are normals, and once on farm won't be much of a challenge, but a healer should not be able to do 10 million more healing then the second closest healer, simply because the second healer doesn't even have a chance to heal anything. The fact that Disc shields lead to entire boss mechanics being negligible is a major problem as well, especially on fights where there is no constant AoE healing needed.

It gets better in heroics, but normals are just unbearable right now. It certainly takes away from the fun of healing if there is nothing to heal and you have to fight for scraps after Disc absorbs everything.

Spirit Shell needs a 3 minute CD. It is just as powerful as Divine Hymn, if not more so because the preventive nature. Not to mention that Disc already has a good raid CD in Barrier as well a a good tank CD.
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90 Undead Priest
18735
Have you considered that they're just better than you or that you're using too many healers?
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90 Pandaren Priest
8065
12/10/2012 01:36 PMPosted by Aimee
Spirit Shell needs a 3 minute CD. It is just as powerful as Divine Hymn, if not more so because the preventive nature. Not to mention that Disc already has a good raid CD in Barrier as well a a good tank CD.


How is SS as powerful as DH? I've seen no number crunching to support this claim, and even intuitively it doesn't make sense.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
8155
It's more of a problem in 10 man than it is in 25 imo, with only 2 groups, SS with a ton of PoH casts on the groups, and everyone is shielded for like 400k. This is much harder to do in 25 man, with 3 more groups to cast PoH on.

There's no other way to nerf SS than the cd, or maybe nerf mastery .
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90 Human Priest
13380
12/10/2012 01:40 PMPosted by Nixxe
Have you considered that they're just better than you or that you're using too many healers?


Oh, we certainly use too many healers for normal, but that's not my call to make in my raid group. I also have a few number number 1 ranked Holy fights, as well as a number of top 10, when our Disc was missing last week. So I don't really think it is me.

12/10/2012 01:47 PMPosted by Natal
How is SS as powerful as DH? I've seen no number crunching to support this claim, and even intuitively it doesn't make sense.


Hmmm, well taking 250k absorbs from SS (just an average of what I've seen go on me from our Disc, which is 60% of the casting Priest's health pool I think), and going across a doable three groups, that would be 250k x 5 = 1.2 million x 3 = 3.6 million. That beats out Holy and Divine Hymn at ~1.3 million that I usually get. Now look at the CD difference and tell me what you get. Not claiming these numbers are 100% correct, so anyone can feel free to correct me, but even if Disc was a few hundred thousand lower, it still has a massive advantage in absorbing the damage.
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90 Undead Priest
18735
12/10/2012 02:52 PMPosted by Aimee
Oh, we certainly use too many healers for normal, but that's not my call to make in my raid group. I also have a few number number 1 ranked Holy fights, as well as a number of top 10, when our Disc was missing last week. So I don't really think it is me.


I don't heal mainspec and never have except for a few months during T7 on a shaman, so take this as you will. In my experience if you're using too many healers for 10 man content, the meter will be healer 1, healer 2, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> healer 3.
Edited by Nixxe on 12/10/2012 2:54 PM PST
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90 Human Priest
13380
12/10/2012 02:53 PMPosted by Nixxe
I don't heal mainspec and never have except for a few months during T7 on a shaman, so take this as you will. In my experience if you're using too many healers for 10 man content, the meter will be healer 1, healer 2, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> healer 3.


Should have clarified. I am in a 25 man guild. I just don't remember it ever being this skewed before. Even DS wasn't this bad with the 30% buff. We had to fight for heals as well then, it just seemed like Disc wasn't this OP. It was in line with the other specs.
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90 Human Warrior
10630
12/10/2012 01:40 PMPosted by Nixxe
Have you considered that they're just better than you or that you're using too many healers?
our groups disc priest is no doubt a better healer than me. Also we're a 10 man group so most fights it me (resto druid) and a disc priest.
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90 Pandaren Priest
8200
Get into harder contant, you have no gear. I'm not sure why you would complain about this issue. Spirit shell wont be nerfed cause it takes a long time to set up full absorbs and costs a ton of mana to do it. Nerfing it would pretty much break the disc class and they aren't about to do that after they have got us to be viable. For some reason I think you're trolling because you have no raid gear at all. Your main is prolly a monk and you're mad about the nerfs maybe?
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90 Night Elf Priest
13490
12/10/2012 03:13 PMPosted by Aimee
Should have clarified. I am in a 25 man guild. I just don't remember it ever being this skewed before. Even DS wasn't this bad with the 30% buff. We had to fight for heals as well then, it just seemed like Disc wasn't this OP. It was in line with the other specs.


Except Disc isn't OP because of Spirit Shell. It's OP because we have far more regen, and a much higher regen potential, than any other healer. Toss in a Mana Tide Totem and we have nearly endless resources, which cannot be said for any other healer.
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