it's not fun to heal if no one takes damage

90 Human Warrior
10630
12/10/2012 04:29 PMPosted by Hexxin
Get into harder contant, you have no gear. I'm not sure why you would complain about this issue. Spirit shell wont be nerfed cause it takes a long time to set up full absorbs and costs a ton of mana to do it. Nerfing it would pretty much break the disc class and they aren't about to do that after they have got us to be viable. For some reason I think you're trolling because you have no raid gear at all. Your main is prolly a monk and you're mad about the nerfs maybe?

what are you talking about? I have more gear on this toon and my resto druid then you do.
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90 Human Priest
13380
Except Disc isn't OP because of Spirit Shell. It's OP because we have far more regen, and a much higher regen potential, than any other healer. Toss in a Mana Tide Totem and we have nearly endless resources, which cannot be said for any other healer.


Can't argue with you there. However, SS is still a far superior CD to anything else if my above numbers are correct. Seems odd that as powerful as it is it is on a one minute CD, while the standard for everything else is three minutes. The post you quoted was just a reference to Disc being op in general, not just SS.

12/10/2012 04:29 PMPosted by Hexxin
Get into harder contant, you have no gear. I'm not sure why you would complain about this issue.


Honestly not sure who you are referring to as almost everyone in this thread has more gear then you or is further progressed. Not meant to be an insult, just legitimately confused.

12/10/2012 04:29 PMPosted by Hexxin
Spirit shell wont be nerfed cause it takes a long time to set up full absorbs and costs a ton of mana to do it.


Really? Spamming PoH for 15 seconds is long to set up? Granted you have to know boss damage patterns and watch timers, but 15 seconds isn't long. Also, what Elethia said.

12/10/2012 04:29 PMPosted by Hexxin
Nerfing it would pretty much break the disc class and they aren't about to do that after they have got us to be viable.


I think Disc is a little bit more then viable, but you do have a point. It is not unreasonable for Disc to get something in return, if in fact nerfing SS would cripple the spec, which I doubt it would. They need to move away from the staggering amount of shielding Disc can do. While it may be the flavor of the spec, in practice shielding is just too strong when compared to healing after the damage is taken, especially in the amounts Disc can do it currently.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13405
12/10/2012 05:48 PMPosted by Aimee
Can't argue with you there. However, SS is still a far superior CD to anything else if my above numbers are correct. Seems odd that as powerful as it is it is on a one minute CD, while the standard for everything else is three minutes. The post you quoted was just a reference to Disc being op in general, not just SS.


I think you're comparing apples to oranges, though, and I'm not sure your numbers are correct.

Spirit Shell takes 15 seconds of your time, and is essentially a buffed PoH-turned-full-absorb. It looks as awesome as it does right now because many raid mechanics fall almost perfectly in line with its CD period. You also have to consider that it's so potent because most priests are going to use AA with it, boosting its numbers by 20%.

Divine Hymn takes 8 seconds, max. The other 7 seconds can be devoted, as Holy, to something like 1 CoH, 1 PoM and 2 PoHs. That's not an insignificant amount of healing.
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90 Night Elf Priest
12265
There is plenty of heroic content where SS can hardly count as a CD. It can get eaten up easily as you're trying to set it up or will fall off half way through a significant amount of high damage even with impeccable pre-casting/timing. I wouldn't whine about it. You bring enough tools to a raid to make you important regardless of topping meters.
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90 Pandaren Priest
8065

How is SS as powerful as DH? I've seen no number crunching to support this claim, and even intuitively it doesn't make sense.


Hmmm, well taking 250k absorbs from SS (just an average of what I've seen go on me from our Disc, which is 60% of the casting Priest's health pool I think), and going across a doable three groups, that would be 250k x 5 = 1.2 million x 3 = 3.6 million. That beats out Holy and Divine Hymn at ~1.3 million that I usually get. Now look at the CD difference and tell me what you get. Not claiming these numbers are 100% correct, so anyone can feel free to correct me, but even if Disc was a few hundred thousand lower, it still has a massive advantage in absorbing the damage.


There are many other factors that go into play, which makes this sort of back-of-the-envelope comparison invalid. In fact, I would even go farther to say that there's no way to reasonably compare SS to DH. I don't want to nitpick over what you obviously intended as a rough estimation, but here are a couple reasons to support my claim.

First, as you indicate SS has a hard cap that scales off Priest HP (60% I believe as well). What this means that that in a perfect world (0 damage going out before the AoE) I can mitigate appx. 2.64 million damage with SS (assuming a health pool of 440k, which is about what I have raid buffed). At that point, there is about a 2.2 sec window where the damage needs to go out or I either am just refreshing timers on capped SS, or not casting abilities that are affected by SS because everyone is capped. The other scenario is that the damage is sustained, rather than a burst, in which case I'd claim that you're downplaying the impact of DH, because of the additional 10% healing received buff recipients receive from all heals while a Holy priest is channeling DH. Long story short, let's not compare SS and DH in this fashion, because they handle damage in different ways (absorbing vs. reversing).

(In your defense, I sidestepped a lot of side perks that SS gets: DA from PoH spam, Grace / reducing Weakened Soul debuff with direct heals, etc.)

I was going to point the following out as well, but someone beat me to it so I'll credit them instead:

12/10/2012 11:20 PMPosted by Elethia
Can't argue with you there. However, SS is still a far superior CD to anything else if my above numbers are correct. Seems odd that as powerful as it is it is on a one minute CD, while the standard for everything else is three minutes. The post you quoted was just a reference to Disc being op in general, not just SS.


I think you're comparing apples to oranges, though, and I'm not sure your numbers are correct.

Spirit Shell takes 15 seconds of your time, and is essentially a buffed PoH-turned-full-absorb. It looks as awesome as it does right now because many raid mechanics fall almost perfectly in line with its CD period. You also have to consider that it's so potent because most priests are going to use AA with it, boosting its numbers by 20%.

Divine Hymn takes 8 seconds, max. The other 7 seconds can be devoted, as Holy, to something like 1 CoH, 1 PoM and 2 PoHs. That's not an insignificant amount of healing.


Not only does DH give another 7 seconds to play with as compared to SS, but all of the crazy SS numbers that people are seeing is with AA popped as well, which requires a ramp up of about 8-9 seconds where Disc healing is pretty much negligible (sure, Atonement heals and the distance increase is fantastic, but unless I can beacon someone for Atonement to heal (which would be awesome), I don't feel as if I'm actively contributing to making sure the right people don't die).

In closing, what amuses me about this most recent SS flare-up is that the recent hotfixes to Disc in no way touched SS. We had DA buffed and Rapture buffed, which gives us more regen to work with, but this isn't a new situation in the long run. Even last expansion Disc had much lower Spirit than Holy (by a factor of about .6, I ran with 1,700 at the end of Cata).

So is SS awesome? Sure. Is it overpowered though? Not really - it's exactly what we were doing in Cata anyways with PoH spam to build DA even when people were topped off (which got me yelled at all the time for the same reasons we're discussing now). Ultimately, on challenging fights SS is more situational than most assume - when steady raid-wide damage is going out I'd rather be PoH + AA spamming to make player's actual health higher than SS and hope the other healer picks up their health while I delay their death for 15 seconds.
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90 Pandaren Priest
12725
12/10/2012 02:52 PMPosted by Aimee
Hmmm, well taking 250k absorbs from SS (just an average of what I've seen go on me from our Disc, which is 60% of the casting Priest's health pool I think), and going across a doable three groups, that would be 250k x 5 = 1.2 million x 3 = 3.6 million. That beats out Holy and Divine Hymn at ~1.3 million that I usually get. Now look at the CD difference and tell me what you get. Not claiming these numbers are 100% correct, so anyone can feel free to correct me, but even if Disc was a few hundred thousand lower, it still has a massive advantage in absorbing the damage.


Just remember you asked for it :).

Your numbers are not accurate. On my character, assuming I haven't made any mistakes, while raid buffed my PoH should output ~29.6k healing per individual heal. Half of this 29.6k healing gets automatic DA, or 14.8k as DA. This 14.8k gets multiplied by 1.62, which is my Mastery bonus of ~62%, and ends up being ~24k as DA. So, an individual PoH heal is ~29.6k with a 24k DA, or 53.6k effective healing per individual PoH heal. In other words, a normal non-overhealing PoH with all DA consumed across 5 targets outputs ~268k effective healing, with 148k of it as healing and 120k of it as DA. To put this into an easier to read format it boils down to the following.

Individual PoH heal = ~29.6k
Individual PoH DA = ~24k
PoH heal across 5 targets = ~148k
PoH DA across 5 targets = ~120k
PoH effective healing across 5 targets = ~268k

Now, we can look at SS PoH. SS PoH basically takes the average heal, which is ~29.6k in this case, applies the Mastery bonus across all of it, applies the Crit modifier across all of it and factors in the DA. Now, it's important to notice an interesting aspect of the DA portion here. The guaranteed DA on PoH used to be 30%. It was buffed to 50%. However, for whatever reason (and yes, this is strange) the modifier being applied to SS appears to remain as 1.3 (or, 30%). From this information we know the SS "formula" remains the same, despite the PoH DA buff. It is as follows....

POH Shell = Average Heal * (1 + Mastery %) * (1 + Crit %) * 1.30

Plugging in my character values while buffed, the PoH average heal is ~29.6k. My Mastery bonus is 62% with the Mastery raid buff and my Critical Strike chance is ~15% with the Critical Strike raid buff. From this we know the 1+Mastery% modifier is 1.62 and the 1+Crit% modifier is 1.15, with the 1.3 modifier (the DA) remaining the same. Plugging these values in gives us the following....

PoH Shell = ~29.6k * 1.62 * 1.15 * 1.3 = ~71.7k SS PoH

So my SS PoH heals should output ~71.7k per target. This ends up being ~359k effective healing per SS PoH cast. This is roughly 1.33% the output of a normal PoH. Or, if you prefer, my SS PoH is 33% stronger than my non-SS PoH.

This seems like a huge jump but there are a few important points to consider.

First off, without factoring in any Haste modifiers you're probably only going to fit 6 PoH casts off during SS. Since throwing Haste into the mix only serves to complicate things we will assume this to be true for now. From above we expect my SS PoH to apply ~359k effective healing per cast. So 6 of them should output six times as much. Putting it all together my SS PoH should output ~2.154 million effective healing each time it is used (much lower than your cited 3.6 million).

The second point you have to consider is that not all of this healing is from SS. If I didn't use SS in such a situation I would be using regular PoH. So the SS buff is essentially only increasing my output by 33% in this situation. If I cast 6 regular PoH's I would be outputting ~1.604 million effective healing. In other words SS itself was only responsible for ~546k effective healing. Of course, this would only apply to situations where "pre-shielding" wasn't the desired effect. For instance, aura damage.

The numbers change in a situation where the SS shields are absorbing a burst. With PoH in this situation you can pretty much completely discard the "healing" and only the DA counts. In that situation my DA would add up to ~720k effective healing on 6 PoH casts. Here the SS buff ends up accounting for ~1.434 million effective healing. In either case it's not providing anywhere near as much benefit as you're suggesting.

Also, you'll note I completely neglected critical strikes when looking at normal PoH but they are factored into SS PoH by default. This further changes the numbers and moves them a bit less in favor of SS PoH. Although, SS PoH does have a sizable advantage in the first situation (aura damage) because regular PoH tends to over-heal more.

I'm sure you're going to bring up Archangel and Inner Focus. I would counter with the following....

AA: Applies the same benefit to non-SS PoH and SS PoH so it's irrelevant in terms of the SS benefit (because in both instances the spell scales by the same AA percentage modifier). It is important to recognize this may actually be detrimental to do in a 10m though, as you may have a high likelihood of exceeding the SS cap and losing healing by pairing SS with AA.

IF: Same concept as AA in that both SS PoH and PoH scale by the same amount when pairing this with them. The SS cap is a larger concern in a 10m here though.

Throwing PI or BT into the situation does significantly change the above in 25m but you have to be careful there in 10man because of the SS cap (gaining more SS casts doesn't benefit you if they're just exceeding the cap and over-healing).

It's actually helpful to consider all of this because I've been pairing AA+SS, AA+IF+SS and even throwing in PI quite a bit lately. Based on my stats it would seem to reason I should stop doing this when employing SS to stop large incoming bursts of damage but continue to do it for aura damage (unless I need the mana savings from PI or IF anyway....).
Edited by Volios on 12/11/2012 12:53 PM PST
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90 Human Priest
13380
12/10/2012 11:20 PMPosted by Elethia
Divine Hymn takes 8 seconds, max. The other 7 seconds can be devoted, as Holy, to something like 1 CoH, 1 PoM and 2 PoHs. That's not an insignificant amount of healing.


Fair enough, but if you are able to per-shield with SS, and a sizable chunk of it doesn't get eaten away by pulse damage (even if it is, that is still damage that could easily bring a few raid members low enough to have them die during the huge burst), the Disc Priest is able to use his regular AoE abilities while the Holy is channeling DH after the damage comes. If the Disc is waiting for the damage to come before he starts with SS, seems like that is just playing incorrectly. SS is a potent raid CD with advantages and disadvantages, just like DH. I just think it should be treated as such is all.

12/10/2012 11:23 PMPosted by Jane
There is plenty of heroic content where SS can hardly count as a CD. It can get eaten up easily as you're trying to set it up or will fall off half way through a significant amount of high damage even with impeccable pre-casting/timing. I wouldn't whine about it. You bring enough tools to a raid to make you important regardless of topping meters.


You could be right. My guild has only recently just started to make progress in heroic modes, and the Disc Priest happened to be missing that week. My comments are just about what I have personally experienced. Also, it isn't really about topping meters for me (though it is fun knowing you are playing your class to it's fullest potential), it's more about not feeling useless during raid, which Monks, and now Disc, have both made me feel.
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90 Human Priest
13380
12/11/2012 11:21 AMPosted by Natal
First, as you indicate SS has a hard cap that scales off Priest HP (60% I believe as well). What this means that that in a perfect world (0 damage going out before the AoE) I can mitigate appx. 2.64 million damage with SS (assuming a health pool of 440k, which is about what I have raid buffed). At that point, there is about a 2.2 sec window where the damage needs to go out or I either am just refreshing timers on capped SS, or not casting abilities that are affected by SS because everyone is capped. The other scenario is that the damage is sustained, rather than a burst, in which case I'd claim that you're downplaying the impact of DH, because of the additional 10% healing received buff recipients receive from all heals while a Holy priest is channeling DH. Long story short, let's not compare SS and DH in this fashion, because they handle damage in different ways (absorbing vs. reversing).


All this said to me is that you have to know how to use SS for it to be effective. Yes, it does have set-up time that can be messed up by factors outside of your control, but that is just its nature. Like I said in my above post, both have advantages and disadvantages, I just don't get why it has a one minute CD as opposed to DH's three. I don't think anyone here can argue that SS is not an extremely potent raid CD, no matter if it happens to be harder to use then other raid CD's.

12/11/2012 11:21 AMPosted by Natal
Not only does DH give another 7 seconds to play with as compared to SS, but all of the crazy SS numbers that people are seeing is with AA popped as well, which requires a ramp up of about 8-9 seconds where Disc healing is pretty much negligible (sure, Atonement heals and the distance increase is fantastic, but unless I can beacon someone for Atonement to heal (which would be awesome), I don't feel as if I'm actively contributing to making sure the right people don't die).


I don't play Disc, but come on, getting 5 stacks up of Evangelism before your SS is off CD is not hard. Should be enough with your instant Holy Fires. Also, if you pre-shield correctly, you are spamming PoH while I am channeling DH.

12/11/2012 11:21 AMPosted by Natal
In closing, what amuses me about this most recent SS flare-up is that the recent hotfixes to Disc in no way touched SS. We had DA buffed and Rapture buffed, which gives us more regen to work with, but this isn't a new situation in the long run. Even last expansion Disc had much lower Spirit than Holy (by a factor of about .6, I ran with 1,700 at the end of Cata).


Well Archangel was hot fixed to apply to SS, which with he other buffs, just made Disc sky rocket. SS isn't the only problem, and it honestly might not be the biggest one, it is just the one I'm focusing on right now :)

12/11/2012 11:21 AMPosted by Natal
So is SS awesome? Sure. Is it overpowered though? Not really - it's exactly what we were doing in Cata anyways with PoH spam to build DA even when people were topped off (which got me yelled at all the time for the same reasons we're discussing now). Ultimately, on challenging fights SS is more situational than most assume - when steady raid-wide damage is going out I'd rather be PoH + AA spamming to make player's actual health higher than SS and hope the other healer picks up their health while I delay their death for 15 seconds.


I'm not sure if I said it was over-powered based on what it could do (maybe I did, too lazy to look). It becomes over-powered because of its short CD in comparison to every other raid CD.
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90 Human Priest
13380
12/11/2012 12:42 PMPosted by Volios
Just remember you asked for it :).


Oh God, math makes my head hurt :)

12/11/2012 12:42 PMPosted by Volios
Of course, this would only apply to situations where "pre-shielding" wasn't the desired effect. For instance, aura damage.


Is there any fight that pre-shielding isn't a good idea though? Even Garalon, which is the fight that I associate constant AoE damage with the most, you have periods of lower damage incoming. Perfect time to fully shield a few groups and let the AoE eat away at it and give the other healers a mana break. If the lower damage doesn't break it, then once the stacks get up it most certainly will. There is a chance of over heal on PoH as well during this time as the damage going out is not enough to prevent the raid from being topped off.

I'm probably in the minority here, but I see no problem casting shields on people when they are low as opposed to actual heals. In the end the same result is accomplished; the health bar not being empty. In any case, Garalon does have big predictable damage, and even if SS does get eaten before the Crush, it allows the other heals to top off the raid. Probably a better option now that I think about it.

12/11/2012 12:42 PMPosted by Volios
Putting it all together my SS PoH should output ~2.154 million effective healing each time it is used (much lower than your cited 3.6 million).


Like I said, math is not my strong point, heh. In any case, that is one SS. you can fit two more before my DH is off CD. So ~6.3 million damage in the time my CD did ~1.3. Add in the possibility of pre-shielding and then casting PoH, while I'm channeling (2-3 PoH casts depending on your haste and mine), and overall SS eclipses DH. I never said nerf SS numbers. Just the CD.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
Spirit shell is more of a Personal CD than a raid CD, in the same vein as Power Infusion. Keep in mind that if spirit shell were nerfed, it would be an enormous nerf to our mastery itself as well, which is comparable to crit as it is. It also hurts the flavor of disc because like it or not disc's entire reason for existing is to prevent damage.
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90 Pandaren Priest
12725
12/11/2012 03:56 PMPosted by Sotanaht
Spirit shell is more of a Personal CD than a raid CD, in the same vein as Power Infusion.


^
This right here. This is why I don't think comparing Divine Hymn to SS is a fair comparison. The raid CD on Discipline is PW:B. SS is more of a personal CD designed to improve existing spells. It would be more fair to compare it to something like Tree of Life, or as mentioned above PI.

12/11/2012 02:37 PMPosted by Aimee
Like I said, math is not my strong point, heh. In any case, that is one SS. you can fit two more before my DH is off CD. So ~6.3 million damage in the time my CD did ~1.3. Add in the possibility of pre-shielding and then casting PoH, while I'm channeling (2-3 PoH casts depending on your haste and mine), and overall SS eclipses DH. I never said nerf SS numbers. Just the CD.


I'll agree completely when you say SS is over the top. The difference is I don't think SS itself is responsible for the problem.

Discipline should be good at preemptively stopping damage before it hits, whether it be single-target or AoE damage. It should also have somewhat competitive sustained AoE throughput. I think the problem we have now is the recent string of buffs designed to improve it's sustained AoE throughput pushed it's burst AoE throughput too high (the DA and PoH changes). There is also the Rapture problem.

Personally, if I were them I would do the following...

1. Split Holy PoH and Discipline PoH into two separate spells, each of which does exactly what it currently does for each respective spec.
2. Revert or reduce the 25% buff for Discipline PoH.
3. Give Discipline a new instant, smart AoE healing tool with a short CD.
4. Reduce the Rapture buff slightly.

Step 1 avoids causing step 2 to hurt Holy unnecessarily by disassociating Holy PoH from Discipline PoH. Step 2 lowers Discipline SS throughput and DA contribution slightly. Step 3 gives Discipline another AoE healing tool, which it should have had a very long time ago, improves it's weak AoE smart healing, slightly reduces the emphasis on PoH and compensates it's loss in sustained throughput from the PoH nerf. Step 4 is self explanatory.
Edited by Volios on 12/11/2012 4:45 PM PST
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