DK PvP Question

90 Undead Death Knight
7830
Would the majority of this forum say we're undertuned, or that other classes are overpowered? I get that pretty much no one thinks we're in a good place in comparison with others right now, but if that's how you feel, please feel free to comment.

I'm of the mind that we're in a really good place individually, but that other classes are overpowered. I like the glass cannon feel; that I can pump out tons of damage and have to be on top of my defensives. I'm pretty pleased with the options open to us (Unholy, 2H Frost, DW Frost, Desecrated Earth, Remorseless Winter, Runic Corruption, Blood Tap, etc), and I think Blizzard did a pretty good job. Unholy could use some QoL buffs, definitely, but overall I'd say I'm as happy as I've ever been with where we are as a class.

The issue is that balanced isn't enough this season. This season, you need to be overpowered. Why bring a DK instead of a warrior? Their AoE CCs, plural, CCs, are instant and reliable. Ours is more to fob people off and make them use GCDs on things other than damage or healing. I love that, but why bring it instead of instant AoE lockdowns? There's no reason to. This is just one of many reasons that a warrior beats out a DK for PvP right now.

IMO, if we buff DKs any more, we're gonna have another issue as with warriors. The answer isn't to tone us up, it's to tone everyone else down. At least, that's what I believe. I want to get a bead on everyone else's opinion.
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90 Undead Death Knight
10730
I think DKs are !@#$ and are in need of some serious overhaul. damage is good, our utility sucks, our peels suck, and our cc suck, and our survivability sucks. DKs are kinda under powered. Waiting until next expansion for another possible class overhaul, till then i'm just going to play my ret. Not going to pay 15 bucks a months so i can play a %^-* class that no one wants to bring in arena.
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90 Human Death Knight
9250
12/10/2012 01:33 AMPosted by Leafytoast
our utility sucks


Anti-magic zone, 10% melee haste buff, dispels from Icy Touch, ground AoE for getting stealthies, protecting the flag, and slowing groups of people, interrupts, silences, healing absorption and cast time slowing, along with constant pressure on all targets from DoTs means that our utility is fine. Not to mention that we have the most OP spell in the game when it comes to dark simulacrum. If you know how to use it, you can certainly steal a really nice spell to help your team out. Steal a penance, or a sheep/fear spell and you're golden.

our peels suck


Two death grips, constant slowing from your howling blast (on multiple targets) Constant chains of ice roots and slows, DND AoE slow, ghoul stun, interrupt from mind freeze, and full silence from Strangulate, Gorfiend's grasp for a third *And AoE* Death Grip, or Remorseless winter for not only an AoE slow, but an AoE stun.. Our peels are also fine.

and our cc suck


Our CC abilities are much the same as our peels abilities. We can keep things at range pretty easily, we have a stun (if talented for).. We don't have any outright CC abilities that last for 12 secs, but we honestly don't need them.

and our survivability sucks


Our survivability is fine. Honestly, people complain so much because they get beat by people, and never stop to think that maybe.. Just maybe.. It's them, and not the class..

You have death strike which in most cases is good enough, you have your lichborne for anti-fears, and healing with death coil (which heals for quite a bit if you have the gear to support it) You can glyph for Death coil to give you a shield for the amount of damage that it does. You have your death pact which heals for 50% of your health, and more if you activate blood presence just before hand. You can use your blood presence to heal for more after you kill someone with your glyph of dark succor aswell, same with death pact. (You get the buff only while in frost or unholy, but it still works if you switch to blood spec)

If you take all your healing abilities, and Ice bound fortitude (which also removes stuns so you can get to that healing that we're so good at) into consideration with all the utility and CC that we provide, you can do quite well.. Stop complaining and learn your class.. If you can't learn your class go play a frost mage.. 2,2,2,3,2,2,2,3,2,2,2,3... Might suit you better.
Edited by Siameren on 12/11/2012 12:17 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
6600
12/10/2012 12:26 AMPosted by Trenk
Would the majority of this forum say we're undertuned, or that other classes are overpowered? I get that pretty much no one thinks we're in a good place in comparison with others right now, but if that's how you feel, please feel free to comment.


It's honestly a little bit of both. Personally, I feel Death Knights would be in a perfect spot if we just received some minor tweaks (Buff to IBF, Bone shield being baseline, reworking of the 4-piece pvp set bonus, etc.)

At the same time, most of the Death Knight's problems come from other classes. Like you said, why would you want a death knight when a warrior is better in every way? Their CC is better, their burst is better, their gap openers and closers are better, everything about them is just better. Warriors, Frost Mages, and even warlocks, need to get hit with the nerf bat, hard. Their entire toolbox is too good and makes other classes, except maybe a paladin, not worth playing.
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90 Undead Death Knight
7830
@Sia I feel that's a little unfair. It's pretty commonly accepted that Death Knights just aren't on par with many other melee classes, to blame that on the people instead of on the class isn't entirely correct. Sure, we have people like Influencce and Reinhart and Reqy and Innverse who can do well with non optimal classes, but they're well above average. For most ground level PvP'rs, we're just not up to scratch.

@Kara I like the idea of a 4P rework (Maybe a Death Strike buff or a change to burst?) and Bone Shield going baseline, I think both of those would help a lot. I also submit that Death Coil heals on a percentage of health, rather than off of a multiplier.
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90 Human Death Knight
4915
I think you hit the nail on the head. It's freaking depressing how a clothy can smoke a Death Knight. Survivability for whatever reason is just sad this season.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
12105

You have death strike which in most cases is good enough,.

lolwhat?

Not to mention that we have the most OP spell in the game when it comes to dark simulacrum. If you know how to use it, you can certainly steal a really nice spell to help your team out. Steal a penance, or a sheep/fear spell and you're golden.

unreliable even in the hands of the best player not even close to OP

, you have your lichborne for anti-fears, and healing with death coil (which heals for quite a bit if you have the gear to support it) You can glyph for Death coil to give you a shield for the amount of damage that it does. You have your death pact which heals for 50% of your health, and more if you activate blood presence just before hand. You can use your blood presence to heal for more after you kill someone with your glyph of dark succor aswell, same with death pact. (You get the buff only while in frost or unholy, but it still works if you switch to blood spec)

If you take all your healing abilities, and Ice bound fortitude (which also removes stuns so you can get to that healing that we're so good at) into consideration with all the utility and CC that we provide, you can do quite well.. Stop complaining and learn your class.. If you can't learn your class go play a frost mage.. 2,2,2,3,2,2,2,3,2,2,2,3... Might suit you better.

1. lichborne heals are extremely inefficient and glitchy.
2. death coil glyph can not be cast on yourself.
3. death pact is once ever 2 min
4. dark succor's usefullness is funneled into chain pulling while questing. in pvp its pointless to have the dark succor heal as you have already killed your target.
5. icebound fortitude competes with lichborne heals for resources used and its damage reduction it provides is pitiful for a 3 minute cd.
6. the only real cc a dk provides is reuseless winter. nobody with half a brain gets caught in it. saying dks have tons of utility is so far from the truth it makes me want to puke.
7. not one of the abilities you mentioned will stop an enemy team from training a dk in arenas.
Edited by Kusari on 12/11/2012 4:13 PM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
3935
Do you guys not find it strange that players who have little to no pvp experience are the ones saying that DKs are fine.....but every single gladiator, and rank 1 player will tell you that DKs need buffs.

Let me explain why this is happening...there are 2 options

A) You do not play your DK and are just trying to make sure DKs do not get buffed.

B) You have learned to use your defensive cooldowns effectively, and are running against 1500-1800 teams. You think DKs are fine, because you rarely see teams coordinate CC, and burst together. As soon as you see these two things come together you will truly see how gimped DKs are.

I am at a complete loss as to how you guys think our CC is ok...our CC is !@#$ and extremely easy to counter. Dark Sim would be worthwhile if every single top end player didnt have an addon screaming in their face when dark sim is put on them.

Every single other class has TONS of CC...all of our CC is honestly crap or on a way too long CD. If they want to fix DKs they really need to pull strangulate down to 1 minute, and give us a bit stronger defense against physical damage classes.
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90 Undead Death Knight
7830
Third option is they're trolling.

I'd still rather other classes' burst and CC be brought down than ours be buffed. I guess I'm just a sadist that way. Enjoy sea level, mages.
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90 Undead Death Knight
7830
OH MY GOD MY DREAM CAME PARTIALLY TRUE.
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90 Human Death Knight
6155
DK's are definitely undertuned. There's no way Blizzard is going to nerf 70% of the classes and specs just so that DKs, Rogues, and Monks can play with the big boys. The only answer is to buff the minority. We have 3 main issues: Survivability, Utility, and Mobility. Now, I can deal with having no utility if my damage is amazing, which Frost's arguably is. Sadly, Frost is subject to the RNG monster. Killing Machine procs determine whether or not you have any real burst. Something a little more consistent and predictable would be appreciated, as opposed to "mash obliterate and pray it crits". Unholy, on the other hand, has garbage damage based around long CDs, a paper thin pet, and absurdly slow ramp ups. That's just unacceptable.

Mobility and survivability, however, have to be added to the class. Right now we have virtually no mobility at all. You can get Death's Advance if you really think someone can hold down a target for you, but that's still 1 meager sprint on a fairly long CD. If we don't have mobility, then we need control, and right now it's pretty much all chilblains. Asphyxiate being on the same tier as chilblains pretty much makes it non-existent. Desecration is gone completely so unholy doesn't have it's own snare. We're also the only class subject to getting boned both my disarms AND silences. Silence = no spells and no defensive CDs, which is retarded. Please, for the love of god, at least let me IBF while silenced. I hate dying in a silence because there's literally no defense for it.

That's just a few of the major problems that need fixing. The rune system as a whole needs work as well.
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90 Human Death Knight
6715
Frost Dks Survability sucks.
Edited by Leonariasdk on 12/12/2012 8:56 PM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
8005
12/12/2012 08:55 PMPosted by Leonariasdk
Frost Dks Survability sucks.

Gem resil, it helps.
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90 Human Death Knight
9250
12/11/2012 04:12 PMPosted by Kusari
1. lichborne heals are extremely inefficient and glitchy.


Mine are fine. They heal me for 50K each hit, I can get 2 off instantly, get a Death strike in, and another one.

2. death coil glyph can not be cast on yourself.


But it can be cast on either of your 3's partners so you can help them stay alive long enough for them to peel off of you, or get a heal off.

3. death pact is once ever 2 min


Right.. but you have 8 other heals you can use in the mean time.

4. dark succor's usefullness is funneled into chain pulling while questing. in pvp its pointless to have the dark succor heal as you have already killed your target.


./sigh... If you're dueling.. Yes.. You're right. Your target is dead and you won. If you kill someone in 2's, 3's, 5's, or RBG's, there's typically another player around, or a few players around that are gunning for you at this point, meaning that you can use your larger heal to stay alive longer for the next part of the fight..

5. icebound fortitude competes with lichborne heals for resources used and its damage reduction it provides is pitiful for a 3 minute cd.


But you're not using it with your other abilities. You can use it with Death Pact, or your Death strike / empower rune weapon spam, but you wouldn't be stupid enough to use it when you're using your lichborne.. You don't need to blow all your CD's at one time. That's how you lose the fight.

6. the only real cc a dk provides is reuseless winter. nobody with half a brain gets caught in it. saying dks have tons of utility is so far from the truth it makes me want to puke.


I'm constantly keeping people in my Remorseless winter. Between the slows that I provide, and death grip, and the fact that RW last longer than the required stacks means that I can easily keep my target (or multiple) inside long enough for them to be stunned. Ps.. I have a bucket if you need to puke.. Learning to play your class can be stressful at times and induce vomiting.

7. not one of the abilities you mentioned will stop an enemy team from training a dk in arenas


If you know what you're doing, and you know how to stick with the class you play and re-learn how to play it when they get nerfed, then yes.. They will. Like I said before.. If you don't know how to play the class, roll something else. DK's are fine. It's not the class, it's the player. Go play a mage.

Ps.. You people are pathedic.. There are easier ways to have fun than !@#$% and complain about everything every time your class goes through a change.. Either suck it up, and learn how to play it again, or roll something that's OP right now (your choices right now are warriors, locks, mages, and hunters *All face roll classes now.. For people who lack any kind of skill 1,1,1,2,1,1,1,2...*)
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90 Human Death Knight
9250

You actually need to be !@#$ing laid out.


I love how you just insult me and don't give any constructive feedback. You're probably just one of the useless players that sit in SW/Org everytime their class gets a nerf and !@#$%es untill it gets fixed.

Why is it that I along with many other people have no problems with the class? It's not the class, it's the player.

DK's are doing fine.

played 100 games, cannot get 1550


Playes with friends and ends up typically with a 2 vs 1 situation, and is too nice to tell my friends to piss off and get a real arena partner. Transfer to my server, and give me a serious partner, and I'll show you how it's done.
Edited by Siameren on 12/13/2012 2:30 AM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
9250
I'm not going to give you feedback because you will sit there and dismiss it like you're some !@#$ing rank one multiglad. You aren't even geared you %^-*ing random battleground pug hero !@#$. Have you even stepped into arena this expansion?

Who the absolute %^-* do you think you are?


lol. You're pretty angry.
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