New to raiding and exasperated

39 Night Elf Hunter
0
I'm a relatively new player, having started in Cata and started raiding in Mists, and was hoping to get some advice from more experienced folks. I sought out and joined a casual raiding guild (note: not the one I'm logged in under) at the start of the expansion, but our constant failure and lack of progression are starting to get to me.

We raid 12 hours a week, and as of now we're 4/6 MSV on 10-man normal and 1/6 HoF. 3 weeks of that time was spent on Elegon before we just gave up and moved on. It seems like the heart of our problem is a lack of continuity from one night to the next. Healers and tanks are more or less consistently there, but we replace 2-3 DPS.

There seem to be some skill/gear issues, as well. Friends/people who were there first are prioritized over better players. I see a lot of spirit on our DPS casters, and I'm somehow out-DPSing players who have 5-6 ilvls on me.

In the end, I've raided for the equivalent of 2 work-weeks, and have a new belt and bracers to show for it. I guess my question is this: when I asked for a casual guild, is this situation basically what I signed up for? For those who have been there before, is there even a chance things get better?
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90 Goblin Warrior
16510
Well, guilds are what you make out of it. Depending on your tastes, you could find another guild that raids a similar amount of time that may or may not progress as fast as your current group.

Example, my guild raids 9 hours a week and we try to clear 2 new heroic bosses per reset.

Example #2: A lot of these top 50 US/world raiding guilds raid 70+ hours a week to start, then scale it back to 2-6 hours a week per character once they have everything cleared out
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90 Goblin Warrior
16510
In my personal experience over these past 13 years (including my EQ time), I look for guilds based on the following criteria:

1) Are they progressed enough for me? It's no fun to feel like carrying people constantly, friends or not

2) What are their raid times and can I make them?

3) What amount of effort would it take for me to raid with them, in the case of another server or faction.

4) Does my personality mesh with the raiders I would be joining? Usually 15 minutes of listening to them raid once they start doing progression will solve this one quick.

Take my opinion for what its worth, but if you don't particularly care to raid with a group of 9-35 people, there's another 50-3000 guilds that recruit most anyone worth a damn
Edited by Faderoll on 12/10/2012 2:26 PM PST
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41 Troll Warrior
6685
12/10/2012 01:57 PMPosted by Marketh
Friends/people who were there first are prioritized over better players. I see a lot of spirit on our DPS casters, and I'm somehow out-DPSing players who have 5-6 ilvls on me.


That will do it. You can't really carry people on progression content. Especially not on Elegon.

My guild tried to push to HoF for more gear before finishing Elegon. It didn't work out because Elegon isn't as much a gear check as it is a raid-wide skill check.
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39 Night Elf Hunter
0
In my personal experience over these past 13 years (including my EQ time), I look for guilds based on the following criteria:

1) Are they progressed enough for me? It's no fun to feel like carrying people constantly, friends or not

2) What are their raid times and can I make them?

3) What amount of effort would it take for me to raid with them, in the case of another server or faction.

4) Does my personality mesh with the raiders I would be joining? Usually 15 minutes of listening to them raid once they start doing progression will solve this one quick.

Take my opinion for what its worth, but if you don't particularly care to raid with a group of 9-35 people, there's another 50-3000 guilds that recruit most anyone worth a damn


Thanks for the well thought-out reply. I've been starting to think more along those lines. What really sucks is that our raid leader is an extremely nice person, and I'm dreading telling her I quit.
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2 Undead Mage
0
We raid 12 hours a week, and as of now we're 4/6 MSV on 10-man normal and 1/6 HoF. 3 weeks of that time was spent on Elegon before we just gave up and moved on. It seems like the heart of our problem is a lack of continuity from one night to the next. Healers and tanks are more or less consistently there, but we replace 2-3 DPS.

There seem to be some skill/gear issues, as well. Friends/people who were there first are prioritized over better players. I see a lot of spirit on our DPS casters, and I'm somehow out-DPSing players who have 5-6 ilvls on me.

In the end, I've raided for the equivalent of 2 work-weeks, and have a new belt and bracers to show for it. I guess my question is this: when I asked for a casual guild, is this situation basically what I signed up for? For those who have been there before, is there even a chance things get better?

first of all, it sounds like the guild you joined isn't for you, you're wanting to get more out of raiding than they are. 12 hours a week for 5/16 normal mode is straight-up awful, no question about it. the people you're playing with have no clue what they're doing and almost certainly don't care.

second, the "new belt and bracers" comment makes me think that you're not seeing the point of raiding either, though. it's not about gear, it's about having fun killing things with people you want to be raiding with, at a pace that suits you. for some guilds it's also about competing with certain other guilds for kills, etc.
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90 Goblin Warrior
16510
Well if raiding is like a job with them, then tell them you are pursuing better business opportunities
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39 Night Elf Hunter
0
[quote]second, the "new belt and bracers" comment makes me think that you're not seeing the point of raiding either, though. it's not about gear, it's about having fun killing things with people you want to be raiding with, at a pace that suits you. for some guilds it's also about competing with certain other guilds for kills, etc.


Interesting point, and it's probably a fair cop. There are tangible rewards and there are intangible rewards. I have indeed been valuing the former over the latter.
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100 Human Paladin
aus
19355
12/10/2012 01:57 PMPosted by Marketh
I guess my question is this: when I asked for a casual guild, is this situation basically what I signed up for? For those who have been there before, is there even a chance things get better?


Yes that's typical of a casual guild.

Note the average guild right now is 6-9 normal. This tier has a relatively difficult normal, pretty much the only tier since sunwell that has been off comparative difficulty was icc at 0% nerf. This is probably due to the establishment of lfr as a "real" difficulty that is part of the system rather then a add on.
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90 Orc Death Knight
8835
What kind of "casual" guild raids for 12 hours per week?
More specifically, why would someone sign-up for a 12 hour raid, and not show up or would allow themselves to suck for that amount of time?

If you're going to join a 12-hour raid you should be expected to not be terrible and to actually show up, since... you know... you're going to be spending a lot of time doing it.

There are casual raid schedules, and casual raid progression. They are different. Personally I would never join a semi-hardcore schedule (that's 12 hours) on casual progression, since it's like beating your head into a wall for 3-4 hours per day.
Edited by Zionic on 12/10/2012 3:28 PM PST
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100 Troll Rogue
16420
There are many guilds who raid significantly less then many "casual" guilds but still make serious progress into heroic modes op, when it boils down to it you just have to figure out whether you are having fun or not and set some goals for yourself.

If you aren't having fun and want people to get better and the guild to have some specific performance and attendance benchmarks you probably won't be content with a "casual" guild and will need to look elsewhere, I can't see anyone getting upset at you in this guild unless you aren't honest with them about leaving.
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100 Pandaren Priest
17260
12/10/2012 01:57 PMPosted by Marketh
I see a lot of spirit on our DPS casters
I'm assuming you mean mages/warlocks, they are the only ones who should ignore spirit.

Group consistency is huge hurdle, subbing in 1 person a week isn't a big deal as long as they sort of know the tactics, but 2-3, especially if they *don't* know the fights, can get you stuck on Stone Guard forever. It's a tough balance when your good players are the ones who are random no-shows.
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100 Human Paladin
13755
OP: non-hardnosed guilds like the one you signed on for are pretty much out of luck. Your raid leader may be a nice person, but it takes a not-so-nice person to shape-up/bench the people holding your team back.

You'll have to ask yourself: do you want nice/happy/ineffectual, or do you actually want to progress? It's not necessarily an easy question to answer.
Edited by Osmeric on 12/10/2012 5:01 PM PST
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100 Troll Rogue
16420
12/10/2012 05:00 PMPosted by Osmeric
You'll have to ask yourself: do you want nice/happy/ineffectual, or do you actually want to progress?


I think on 12 hours a week most people would want to progress.
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2 Undead Mage
0
OP: non-hardnosed guilds like the one you signed on for are pretty much out of luck. Your raid leader may be a nice person, but it takes a not-so-nice person to shape-up/bench the people holding your team back.

You'll have to ask yourself: do you want nice/happy/ineffectual, or do you actually want to progress? It's not necessarily an easy question to answer.

bogus choice.

there are plenty of guild/raid leaders in guilds that are lightyears beyond 5/16N that most definitely quality as "nice people".

to be 5/16N atm, you don't have to be a nice person, you have to be a person who just doesn't give a flying !@#$.
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
12/10/2012 05:12 PMPosted by Coneofcold
there are plenty of guild/raid leaders in guilds that are lightyears beyond 5/16N that most definitely quality as "nice people".


Ya, it's funny when people have this idea that "you're either a hardened !@# or you're a noob"
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
Don't raid 12 hours a week with people that can't clear a dungeon. That's absurd.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
7485
@OP: 5/16 N for 12 hours a week is pretty bad. I don't see how your raid leader himself can stand wiping to the same mistakes over and over again.

The way your guild handles loot also raises a huge red flag. There's no reason Spirit gear should be going to Mages or Warlocks if that gear is an upgrade for a healer.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
@OP: 5/16 N for 12 hours a week is pretty bad. I don't see how your raid leader himself can stand wiping to the same mistakes over and over again.

The way your guild handles loot also raises a huge red flag. There's no reason Spirit gear should be going to Mages or Warlocks if that gear is an upgrade for a healer.


There's no reason Spirit gear should ever be going to Mages or Warlocks. 450 gear is better than Spirit raid epics. if OP means shadow priests, ele shamans or moonkin then he's just being silly.
Edited by Mahourai on 12/10/2012 6:33 PM PST
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90 Orc Warlock
13430
I've made mistakes as well in my guild hunting. Looking back on it, the problem was that I didn't know what kind of guild I wanted and wasn't doing enough research on the guilds I was joining. OP, I would advise you to determine what kind of guild you want. There are all different kinds honestly, especially if you're willing to server transfer. Casuals with long hours, hardcores with short hours. If you just want to raid with friends and don't care about how fast bosses going down, there are plenty of places for that. If you want to go fast, then you need to leave your guild quickly.

Also, while gear should be distributed fairly and equally, I agree that gear should not be a major motivating factor for raiding, as that almost always leads to drama and trouble. Personally I just view gear as the tool for my main goal of killing bosses. Gear going to other guildies is just as good as gear going to me, as it'll boost their DPS.
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