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That was an equally harsh, if not worse nerf for rets...done via hotfix...so the timing is really insignificant, unless you consider the mage class above the same level of treatment that other classes have received. I cannot tell you how many times I respecced my hunter in wrath and cata as they tinkered with survival and MM.

I also do not recall any mages complaining in Cata when they buffed fire up amazingly and people respecced and reforged to go from Arcane to Fire....I guess it is only a problem when the reforging and respeccing occurs because of a nerf to the FOTM spec and forces people to go to a less favorable spec. Funny how that works.

It wasn't as significant percentage DPS loss wise.
Mages didn't complain about switching from arcane to fire because arcane was mind numbingly boring.
Gear wise; the changes happened over a new tier, so it was fairly easy to gear for fire.

I guess, you shouldn't make assertions and throw FOTM out when talking about raiding or even PVP for that matter.
Or post on alts.

You should not bend the truth in your posts. The ret nerf dropped rets from top 2-3 in parses to BELOW the middle of the pack. It was a much harsher nerf than the fire nerf and it was a HOTFIX nerf.
And call it the Fotm, the hot spec, whatever...but mages went from arcane to fire in droves right after 4.3 launched. We didnt hear any complaints about the cost of reforging or regearing because it was a buff and mages jumped all over the buff regardless of cost....same rules apply with nerfs....stop using red herrings to express your displeasure with the nerf...how it was done or when it was done is immaterial...mages...or any nerfed class would whine no matter the timing of the nerf.

12/12/2012 07:01 AMPosted by Oaklander

You should not bend the truth in your posts. The ret nerf dropped rets from top 2-3 in parses to BELOW the middle of the pack. It was a much harsher nerf than the fire nerf and it was a HOTFIX nerf.

This hotfix nerfed us from 2nd highest DPS to the practically bottom of the pack (Just above arms, not including inaccurate data from insufficient parses) in all normal modes.
Which the vast majority of fire mages are still currently doing, if you assume raid bots has equal proportions to actual raiders then that is 83% of the community.
Of course this number could have changed since it was checked over 12 hours ago.

12/12/2012 07:04 AMPosted by Warping

You should not bend the truth in your posts. The ret nerf dropped rets from top 2-3 in parses to BELOW the middle of the pack. It was a much harsher nerf than the fire nerf and it was a HOTFIX nerf.

This hotfix nerfed us from 2nd highest DPS to the practically bottom of the pack (Just above arms, not including inaccurate data from insufficient parses) in all normal modes.
Which the vast majority of fire mages are still currently doing, if you assume raid bots has equal proportions to actual raiders then that is 83% of the community.
Of course this number could have changed since it was checked over 12 hours ago.

Bottom? I dont recall seeing that in the parses. Oh wait, you said practically...lol. The early parse information had fire dropping to middle of the pack and respeccing into arcane...exactly which other dps spec could rets respec into? Right, none.

12/12/2012 07:04 AMPosted by Warping

You should not bend the truth in your posts. The ret nerf dropped rets from top 2-3 in parses to BELOW the middle of the pack. It was a much harsher nerf than the fire nerf and it was a HOTFIX nerf.

This hotfix nerfed us from 2nd highest DPS to the practically bottom of the pack (Just above arms, not including inaccurate data from insufficient parses) in all normal modes.
Which the vast majority of fire mages are still currently doing, if you assume raid bots has equal proportions to actual raiders then that is 83% of the community.
Of course this number could have changed since it was checked over 12 hours ago.

Now look at hard modes instead of normal. Fire is solidly middle of the pack despite the nerf "breaking it". The problem clearly is a scaling issue that will be exacerbated by the return to a higher cm multiplier. Mages with bad gear will still not perform particularly well and with better gear will just be boosted back towards the top. Exaggerating the dps range of the spec by increasing the variance in crit rates more is not the proper way to bring the spec in line.

They don't tend to do mechanical changes, at all in patches.
They tend to play with numbers.

I'm assuming that is what you mean by that.

Then where is the playing with numbers for the other classes/specs at the bottom end of the ladder? Particularly those with months of data backing up their claims to be under-performing, not just a single lock-out?

I wouldn't really describe reducing a 50% nerf to a 40% nerf as a buff.

But if you want to advocate for the same thing for your favorite class, I'll support you.

So does this Ghostcrawler fella have it out for Ret Pallies?

Bottom? I dont recall seeing that in the parses. Oh wait, you said practically...lol. The early parse information had fire dropping to middle of the pack and respeccing into arcane...exactly which other dps spec could rets respec into? Right, none.

Early parse information is irrelevant due to statistical moderation undertaken.
It means that any nerf, will take atleast 1 week (2 weeks if you use appropriate settings) to show.

Now look at hard modes instead of normal. Fire is solidly middle of the pack despite the nerf "breaking it". The problem clearly is a scaling issue that will be exacerbated by the return to a higher cm multiplier. Mages with bad gear will still not perform particularly well and with better gear will just be boosted back towards the top. Exaggerating the dps range of the spec by increasing the variance in crit rates more is not the proper way to bring the spec in line.

Actually any cleave based data is going to be hyperinflated in heroic.
Why?
A fairly decent chunk of the community is doing heroic stone guards compared to the rest of the tier.

H: Stone Guard: 7063 (20.76%)
H: Feng the Accursed: 5191 (15.25%)
H: Gara'jal the Spiritbinder: 3882 (11.41%)
H: Four Kings: 1939 (5.70%)
H: Elegon: 3102 (9.12%)
H: Will of the Emperor: 1221 (3.59%)

Notice that a lot more guilds are downing stone guards as opposed to 6/6H MV?
The drop off gets even more significant when you factor in HoF.
So any parses from heroic modes are going to be inflated by any gimmicks or differences between the first few fights.
Given that the first one is an ideal cleave fight, the 3rd is one where recounts are unreliable that leaves one cleave fight to one non cleave with significant amounts of data.

A 1:1 ratio as opposed to what it is in a full tier.

Then where is the playing with numbers for the other classes/specs at the bottom end of the ladder? Particularly those with months of data backing up their claims to be under-performing, not just a single lock-out?

Put out threads consisting of parses some theory craft and data, in addition to a fairly decent number of people; with that you are more likely to see results.
Mages are vocal, they were vocal and as a benefit have had a minor counterbuff to a significant nerf.

I have a question for the mages here - serious one.

I compared the actual logs of fire mages to many other DPS specs, and even in some logs posted after 12-05, you guys are still 10-30k dps ahead of moonkins in many fights.

My comparative basis was taking the best moonkin log for a given fight (25N), and then comparing it to the top fire mage log - also for comparable dates.

FIRE Mages are still above moonkins. Still above quite a few other specs, in fact, above many specs. I didn't compare arcane yet because I didn't have the time.

After you check these actual parses, with dates (as Lhiv also suggested), can you honestly say that Fire mages, or mages in general, were in a bad spot to warrant so much development time?

I don't particularly agree with the sentiment of the OP, but I find it difficult to ignore the facts that I see. I have seen more mage tweaks (or in general - attention time from devs), than many other specs which have not even seen blue posts. Whether you like it or not, that will irk many gamers.

As you have also pointed out, 1st week of "transition" logs are hardly accurate since players are getting used to new specs, they didn't even wait 1 full week for adjust fire mage numbers. Being a mage, it is difficult to see the viewpoint of many of us, since you've received a lot more attention from the devs.

Just my 2 coppers' worth I suppose...

12/12/2012 11:06 PMPosted by Owlcapwn

As you have also pointed out, 1st week of "transition" logs are hardly accurate since players are getting used to new specs, they didn't even wait 1 full week for adjust fire mage numbers.

It was over a week.
Idk about you, but I like boomkins, that tranquility makes up for their DPS imo.

My comparative basis was taking the best moonkin log for a given fight (25N), and then comparing it to the top fire mage log - also for comparable dates.

Very very bad idea to look at top parses.
Obviously the specs with the higher standard deviations will come out on top, particularly when you look at the top parse.
Instead look at averages on all parses.

It was over a week.
Idk about you, but I like boomkins, that tranquility makes up for their DPS imo.

I've not really complained about our DPS - it's the way in which our DPS is actually dished out that is not well executed by blizzard. Movement kills us more than any other spec right now that I know of. And PVP is one side I'll not comment on (Frost mages have long complained about 1.5 second frostbolts being difficult to get off in PVP, ours are 2.5 second casted ones)

Very very bad idea to look at top parses.
Obviously the specs with the higher standard deviations will come out on top, particularly when you look at the top parse.

And which site do you use for averaging out parses? I didn't find a way to see it in worldoflogs, but if you do - we can do an analysis.

Raidbots.com,

You want to set it to "all parses", and then set it to "1 week"

The "weeks" part is the time frame of parses it looks at. So if you go farther than that you get the stuff after the nerf instead of the 3 days that fire had a giant buff.

Raidbots.com
Overall DPS: 10 normal (Or heroic, but 10 normal has significantly more parses than anything)
Sample Period: 1 week (Nerf is just over a week old)
Data Set: All parses

You see, this is how it went down for Paladins.

http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/image/828

See I remember it being like this.

http://www.cad-comic.com/cad/20090916

Raidbots isn't going to give you particularly accurate Fire numbers right now either; unless we're to believe that Arcane got stealth buffed, the population shift that's quite obviously occurring is having an effect.

Crazy how on December 2nd there were under 100 Arcane parses, and a bit over 10,000 Fire parses, but as of yesterday over half of the Fire Mages have vanished and there's approximately 4500 Arcane Mages.

12/13/2012 09:18 AMPosted by Serinicas

Raidbots isn't going to give you particularly accurate Fire numbers right now either; unless we're to believe that Arcane got stealth buffed, the population shift that's quite obviously occurring is having an effect.

Arcane did get a significant buff right before the fire nerf.

12/13/2012 09:24 AMPosted by Delatt

Arcane did get a significant buff right before the fire nerf.

This

You see, this is how it went down for Paladins.

http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/image/828

See I remember it being like this.

http://www.cad-comic.com/cad/20090916

Reminded me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_JpFDLCl-Y

Raidbots isn't going to give you particularly accurate Fire numbers right now either; unless we're to believe that Arcane got stealth buffed, the population shift that's quite obviously occurring is having an effect.

Crazy how on December 2nd there were under 100 Arcane parses, and a bit over 10,000 Fire parses, but as of yesterday over half of the Fire Mages have vanished and there's approximately 4500 Arcane Mages.

psst, arcane charge mana cost went from 125% to 75%, and the damage of each charge went up by 2-3?%. These changes are HUGE, and the only reason arcane started going so high.

12/12/2012 04:27 PMPosted by Warping

Bottom? I dont recall seeing that in the parses. Oh wait, you said practically...lol. The early parse information had fire dropping to middle of the pack and respeccing into arcane...exactly which other dps spec could rets respec into? Right, none.

Early parse information is irrelevant due to statistical moderation undertaken.
It means that any nerf, will take atleast 1 week (2 weeks if you use appropriate settings) to show.

Now look at hard modes instead of normal. Fire is solidly middle of the pack despite the nerf "breaking it". The problem clearly is a scaling issue that will be exacerbated by the return to a higher cm multiplier. Mages with bad gear will still not perform particularly well and with better gear will just be boosted back towards the top. Exaggerating the dps range of the spec by increasing the variance in crit rates more is not the proper way to bring the spec in line.

Actually any cleave based data is going to be hyperinflated in heroic.
Why?
A fairly decent chunk of the community is doing heroic stone guards compared to the rest of the tier.

H: Stone Guard: 7063 (20.76%)
H: Feng the Accursed: 5191 (15.25%)
H: Gara'jal the Spiritbinder: 3882 (11.41%)
H: Four Kings: 1939 (5.70%)
H: Elegon: 3102 (9.12%)
H: Will of the Emperor: 1221 (3.59%)

Notice that a lot more guilds are downing stone guards as opposed to 6/6H MV?
The drop off gets even more significant when you factor in HoF.
So any parses from heroic modes are going to be inflated by any gimmicks or differences between the first few fights.
Given that the first one is an ideal cleave fight, the 3rd is one where recounts are unreliable that leaves one cleave fight to one non cleave with significant amounts of data.

A 1:1 ratio as opposed to what it is in a full tier.

Then where is the playing with numbers for the other classes/specs at the bottom end of the ladder? Particularly those with months of data backing up their claims to be under-performing, not just a single lock-out?

Put out threads consisting of parses some theory craft and data, in addition to a fairly decent number of people; with that you are more likely to see results.
Mages are vocal, they were vocal and as a benefit have had a minor counterbuff to a significant nerf.

Nerfs take from one to two weeks to show on parses and yet YOU and a LOT of other mages were on these forums within a DAY of the nerf complaining that the nerf pushed you to the bottom of the parses....oh..you said practically...if by that you mean middle of the pack...then sure. I guess you are clairevoyant? I mean at the time you were moaning about the nerf, the data had not yet been compiled. Yeah....
Oh and are boomkins supposed to be comforted by the fact that you like them because they have utility that helps you live longer to significantly out dps them? lol. I wonder if you would appreciate doing terrible dps but having mediocre support utility as a mage while you watched boomkins shovel out the damage...I think not.

Raidbots isn't going to give you particularly accurate Fire numbers right now either; unless we're to believe that Arcane got stealth buffed, the population shift that's quite obviously occurring is having an effect.

Crazy how on December 2nd there were under 100 Arcane parses, and a bit over 10,000 Fire parses, but as of yesterday over half of the Fire Mages have vanished and there's approximately 4500 Arcane Mages.

psst, arcane charge mana cost went from 125% to 75%, and the damage of each charge went up by 2-3?%. These changes are HUGE, and the only reason arcane started going so high.

So, the proven concept that spec parses jump when skilled players shift in droves from one spec to another doesnt apply at all to mages? lol. Of course, some of the jump in arcane was due to the fact that 50% of the fire mages out there respecced to arcane in some part at least. I mean arcane is number 2 on the list now....the buff was not that HUGE.