Tank dps...

90 Orc Death Knight
9155
Breaking out of your usual role is fun. It's exciting to do something different. Tanks should always be pushing their DPS, for the good of the raid - but it's not until you run into fights like this where such a spotlight is placed on it.

It shakes things up a bit, and I'm happy for it. It's not about the meters, it's about the unusual nature of the fight.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12170
The obvious solution is to cap the AP gained from Vengeance again, if Tank DPS on AoE fights becomes too much of a problem.

Additionally, it could remain having no cap, but be averaged around damage taken in the last X seconds (in a way similar to a Blood DK's Death Strike mechanic)
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
12/16/2012 08:56 PMPosted by Ronark
Additionally, it could remain having no cap, but be averaged around damage taken in the last X seconds (in a way similar to a Blood DK's Death Strike mechanic)

It IS.

We gain 2% of the unmitigated damage as AP, and each contribution lasts 20 seconds, and falls off on its own internal timer. Sort of like ignite.
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90 Undead Mage
5285
Only one tank can do that kind of damage, because the one tank is taking the damage from all of those mobs stacking vengeance. If you had a bunch of DPS roll tanks and try the fight, their AoE would suck and overall dps would be much lower.

Just because a tank getting focused on by 10 mobs can do massive damage in a single fight does not mean that DPS classes are irrelevant.


this. Don't get all bent out of shape over the tanks place on the dps meter. you're not competing with him.
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100 Worgen Death Knight
16435
imo tanks shouldn't ever be doing that much damage. not saying make them do zero, but vengeance was a real bastard as you geared up especially in dungeons. its less pronounced in raids but still, tanks ought to tank.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
5620
Since only 1 person can get vengeace its not a big deal and dps are still needed. this is just pointless crying
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90 Human Warrior
11450
Let me get this straight. You are mad because your raid is doing more dps than you believe it should be? You can cry all you want about nerfed AoE per class, it doesn't matter. You could set it to how it was previously and you would still get out dps'd by the tank on that fight. Quit crying and complaining and just lol at the mechanic like we tanks do.
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90 Undead Death Knight
10720
It's only situational that the tanks can just blow the dps away like that. And really the ability of the tanks to sustain the damage out put as you put it, that burden falls onto the healers to keep them alive. Because stacking up that much vengeance means they are living through massive amounts of constant damage.

So really in concept the healers are increasing his damage out put. Not the actual tank.
Edited by Lifenite on 12/19/2012 1:19 PM PST
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90 Undead Mage
11870
Anyone else find it funny how tanks rage at hunters when their pets have growl on? Or when someone wants to off-tank in a 5 man?

There's a topic on this very forum about people off healing in 5 mans and how the dps "shouldn't be doing that!"

But if tank DPS is brought up, then its all "no no - its fine! LAWL@U wanting your raid to do bad!"

Double standard much?
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100 Troll Mage
16470
Its not a double standard as the people complaining about the offheals is completely stupid as most in the thread are telling him just like in this thread. Who ever wants to offtank in 5 mans? Please point me to a thread touching on that subject.

Pets with growl on are different as it makes it tougher for the tank to keep the mobs all together so they can be aoe'ed and the tank can not know for certain without going out of his way to look that the pet is one with threat and not a dps. While tanks doing good dps does not negatively affect the dps in the group.
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90 Tauren Death Knight
1390
I'm not going to lie. My warrior tank out dps' almost everyone all the time in every 5 man dungeon. I don't have great gear either. I just pull rooms of mobs and bam, 50-60k dps every time.

In a perfect world tanks and healers should be pulling the same dps. Threat is a really stupid mechanic. There should never be any reason ever that a tank should out dps any pure class especially with aoe. Pure dps need alot more attention as far as AOE damage. It's sad that pures are the WORST aoe dps, some behind healers.

If a tank really cares that much about dps then he probably shouldn't be playing a tank. A tank is about saying "come n get me suckers" while the dps pound it down to the ground. If tanks are outdpsing dpsers it's disheartening, especially in a game that has been so popular for so long.

To put into perspective, it would be ok if dps outhealed the healers, because it benefits the raid? Sorry to burst your bubble, but one encounter or 20, this game is in the worst shape it's been.... ever. Dps shouldn't rely on self heals to survive. They should rely on utility. Tanks should be mitigating and still being able to hold threat. Tanks shouldn't reforge out of tanking stats because dps stats are better due to mitigation stats being so poor. Healers shouldn't be able to take out 2 dpsers 1vs2. Globaling people is still a problem, and the worst part is there is almost nothing that seperates specs for pure dps due to the new talent trees. The built in mumbo jumbo has taken all creativity out of the game. And yeah, i still pay my monthly subscription. Not really to participate in the game as much as just chat with friends in different states/time zones etc.
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100 Troll Mage
16470
12/19/2012 01:50 PMPosted by Alexbaldwin
It's sad that pures are the WORST aoe dps, some behind healers


Its sad that you think "pures" should have any preferential treatment.

12/19/2012 01:50 PMPosted by Alexbaldwin
Tanks shouldn't reforge out of tanking stats because dps stats are better due to mitigation stats being so poor.


They aren't dps stats because tanks gain benefits from different stats towards there mitigation.

12/19/2012 01:50 PMPosted by Alexbaldwin
In a perfect world tanks and healers should be pulling the same dps


In a perfect world, people wouldn't complain about tank dps when it doesn't invalidate anyones role.
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90 Tauren Death Knight
1390
how can you say it doesn't invalidate anyones role when i'm doing more dps than a dps when i tank. that DOES actually invalidate the role of a dps when a healer or tank has superior aoe DPS. and i'm sorry, but pure dpsers are just that. pure dps. this should include aoe.

this is the problem and why wow loses so many subscribers every month. there is no niche for roles anymore. tanks out dps dps roles, dps outheal healers, and healers have better aoe dps than dps. you are entitled to your own opinion of what makes the game fun to you, but for the millions of wow fans that have quit the game that is exactly the reason why. it just isn't fun.
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90 Orc Death Knight
9155
By god, you're right! We'll just take six tanks with us next time because DPS hold no place in that fight.

Oh wait. That's not how the fight works at all.
Edited by Solution on 12/19/2012 5:16 PM PST
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90 Gnome Warlock
7990
By god, you're right! We'll just take six tanks with us next time because DPS hold no place in that fight.

Oh wait. That's not how the fight works at all.


But that is how you can down Heroic Firelands.
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100 Troll Mage
16470
12/19/2012 05:03 PMPosted by Alexbaldwin
this is the problem and why wow loses so many subscribers every month. there is no niche for roles anymore. tanks out dps dps roles, dps outheal healers, and healers have better aoe dps than dps. you are entitled to your own opinion of what makes the game fun to you, but for the millions of wow fans that have quit the game that is exactly the reason why. it just isn't fun.


So we can take 8 tanks and 2 healers, since tanks invalidate the dps right? Or better yet we can just take 8 tanks and 2 dps since dps heal better than healers.

If we can not start stacking tanks because of there dps over taking dps then dps are not being invalidated. Dps are only being invalidated if a you can just keep adding more tanks instead of dps.
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100 Human Mage
18370
12/19/2012 08:03 PMPosted by Hiroran
If we can not start stacking tanks because of there dps over taking dps then dps are not being invalidated. Dps are only being invalidated if a you can just keep adding more tanks instead of dps.


Can't really make out what you're trying to say, but like Baelis said, a group of Blood DKs were perfectly capable of killing Heroic Ragnaros and Heroic spine (with the help of a priest for dispells) as current content. And an 85 Blood DK just recently soloed Heroic Madness. So there's that.

And I accept the caveats and asterisks about raid nerfs and MoP gear, but the point about a tanking spec being able to down at level content still stands true. No other class would meet enrage, let alone handle the damage.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
12/19/2012 01:26 PMPosted by Howmanylichs
Anyone else find it funny how tanks rage at hunters when their pets have growl on? Or when someone wants to off-tank in a 5 man?

There are a pile of reasons we do this.

1. It deprives us of Vengeance. Given that a tank is between 50% and 100% of a DPS in a five-man dungeon, this means that it's a pretty large DPS loss for the group to have the pet soaking hits.

2. It makes it impossible for us to position the mob. Even in five-mans, this matters.

3. It strains healer mana as they try to keep the pet alive. Tanks take less damage than pets do, as a general rule. Alternatively, the pet simply dies, and the hunter either stops doing anything to rez the pet, or loses damage.

4. Many bosses have frontal cone attacks. If the pet uses it, it can easily smash the group.

12/19/2012 05:28 PMPosted by Baelis
But that is how you can down Heroic Firelands.

1. They did this LONG after it was relevant content.
2. Vengeance wasn't what enabled that; DK selfhealing was what enabled that.
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90 Night Elf Druid
6280
Awwwww, what's the matter, little hunty wunty is all crying over losing to a tanky wanky???

We've established that he had that kind of dps because he had lots of vengeance. Ya want to know what vengeance is? It's a thank you. Thank you tank for getting punched in the face repeatedly. Thank you, for taking the hits so the rest of us don't have to. Thank you for leading the pack so the rest of us can progress.

It does not invalidate your role...now you're a hunter so this may be a new concept but THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING!!!

If you ran in there with 3 guardians, 3 BDKs, 2 Prot Pallies and a prot War, would the boss go down in half the time because everyone would be pulling 200k+ dps?....NOOOOOOOOOOO

Only the tank getting stabbed in the eyes gets vengeance, and only he/she/dk gets increased dps. Tanks without vengeance do ASSSSS as damage. A dps role is a person who can sustain some good effin numbers WITHOUT THE NEED OF GETTING KICKED IN THE NUTS...JEEZ

Try this, when you look at recount to validate your life..ignore the tank numbers. Pretend they're not even there. He doesn't get those numbers by doing a dps rotation, he gets them by keeping himself, and his raid alive.
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100 Troll Mage
16470
12/20/2012 02:56 AMPosted by Nexian
Awwwww, what's the matter, little hunty wunty is all crying over losing to a tanky wanky???


You are hurting everyones arguments when you say this kind of thing, please dont mock others.

12/19/2012 08:41 PMPosted by Uruloki
Can't really make out what you're trying to say, but like Baelis said, a group of Blood DKs were perfectly capable of killing Heroic Ragnaros and Heroic spine (with the help of a priest for dispells) as current content. And an 85 Blood DK just recently soloed Heroic Madness. So there's that.


You can make it out perfectly fine if you just think. Its been said many times but to give an example

Have 2 tanks, 6 dps and 2 healers.
The tanks are outdpsing the dps.

Saying tanks invalidate dps would mean that raid group could then take, 3 tanks or hell even 8 tanks and 2 healers and the groups dps would be higher then when they only had 2 tanks. This is simply not the case, you can only take so many tanks and have them still do good damage, because its all based on vengeance.

The more tanks you have the less damage each one does, and the increase a tank gets does not outweigh the dps a dps does.

Thus tank damage does not invalidate dps
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