Tank dps...

90 Undead Hunter
10595
I hadn't realized so many people had responded. I think many folks took this the wrong way. Dps in my mind should be the best on DPS, just like tanks should be the best tanks, and heals etc. In an aoe situation, dps specs and classes should be clearly the best for that fight. But due to some mechanics this patch/expan and on that long, multimob fight, dps cant even compete against a tank (at least a bear tank on the two times I have seen this). Not due to the dps being bad, or not knowing what they are doing, but because there is a game mechanic that makes a tank do some crazy dmg.

In my mind its like a DK tank outhealing a holy priest or a warlock out tanking a tank pally. If that was the intent of blizz, then I guess I just don't understand it.
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90 Gnome Warlock
7990
Look at it this way.

Boss has 5 bazillion health and a 5 min enrage.

If Tank is doing .8 bazillion dps over 5 mins that 4 bazilion damage done.

That means the dps can throw off heals, run around and stand in fire because they only have to do a little dps. You think the devs considered how high tank damage was going to be? 2 - 3 times higher then an excellent dps?

Not a well balanced game.

And yes it makes the damage dealers not matter because they do not have to actually do their job because the tank is doing so much damage.

When you have a role, you expect that role to be what you do.
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100 Troll Mage
17020
12/20/2012 10:31 AMPosted by Baelis
That means the dps can throw off heals, run around and stand in fire because they only have to do a little dps. You think the devs considered how high tank damage was going to be? 2 - 3 times higher then an excellent dps?


Completely false.

12/20/2012 10:31 AMPosted by Baelis
And yes it makes the damage dealers not matter because they do not have to actually do their job because the tank is doing so much damage.


Give me one fight when I can go afk and not do my job in a fight because the tanks damage is so high?
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90 Orc Death Knight
9155
While you've proven pretty handily that you're not willing to be swayed by the logic of others, I still feel compelled to pull apart the fight a little further, and prove that your hypothetical scenario doesn't actually exist.

Warning: Rough numbers ahead.

On Wind Lord, the boss has 270mil health, 10 man normal - each of the adds has 50 mil hp, damage is spread between the three adds of a certain subgroup.

420 mil damage needs to go out in 8 minutes. 875,000 raid DPS - usually split between 1 tank, 6 DPS, 3 healers. If the tank was doing minimal damage throughout this fight the DPS requirement for all those DPS would be somewhere around 140k.

Not bad, a lot of classes can pull some pretty sick cleave DPS on that fight, and there is the massive damage bonus you get in the final phase - but what about those who can't cleave? Or people without strong burn phase cooldowns? I doubt you care, because honestly you seem a little selfish, and you play a warlock, but some specs would be benched on Wind Lord because they simply can't really hack these strange mechanics.

Or more likely - it was anticipated that tanks would be doing huge damage on this fight - hence the strict enrage timer. Factoring in the tank as a functional DPS on this fight, the damage requirement to beat the enrage drops to 125k dps, which is much more manageable. Cleave specs will still over perform, and poor cleavers will still underperform that number a little, but the relaxed requirement enables those specs to be less detrimental.

In short - tank DPS was factored into this encounter's enrage timer, and DPS still needs to perform their role optimally. DPS are still required to perform well. They are still necessary. There is no problem here. None.

It's worth noting while you examine these numbers that normal modes are tuned to the expectation that people are wearing a mix of blues and epics, item levels much lower than we see today. The fight done properly might have even required two tanks to split the adds, for some groups - making the enrage timer even tighter.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
A tank is just a DPS whose rotation also helps them not die anyway. The distinction between the two is pretty thin. I have no problem with colossal tank damage numbers aside from the inflated ego it's likely to give a lot of tank-only players, whose egos are pretty big already.
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i giggled a little inside when i saw this thread cause last night i topped out at 440k on windlord and finished the fight at 330k while tanking. hehe /flex
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100 Troll Mage
17020
i giggled a little inside when i saw this thread cause last night i topped out at 440k on windlord and finished the fight at 330k while tanking. hehe /flex


Strange how I dont see you at all on worldoflogs, are your logs private? Which that would be weird since I can find some of your previous logs and they aren't private.
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12/20/2012 04:24 PMPosted by Hiroran
i giggled a little inside when i saw this thread cause last night i topped out at 440k on windlord and finished the fight at 330k while tanking. hehe /flex


Strange how I dont see you at all on worldoflogs, are your logs private? Which that would be weird since I can find some of your previous logs and they aren't private.


It was in an lfr so probably wasn't recorded, yes it was an lfr hero moment but still 440k as tank made me giggle
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100 Troll Mage
17020
12/21/2012 07:03 AMPosted by Icefalcon
It was in an lfr so probably wasn't recorded, yes it was an lfr hero moment but still 440k as tank made me giggle


Ah fair enough, but by doing that you are probably creating more and more who are "tank damage is bad, they shouldn't be doing that much!!!!!!"

Im just giving you a hard time though, I always love when a tank is doing good dps.
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97 Human Warrior
10825
Anyone else find it funny how tanks rage at hunters when their pets have growl on? Or when someone wants to off-tank in a 5 man?

There's a topic on this very forum about people off healing in 5 mans and how the dps "shouldn't be doing that!"

But if tank DPS is brought up, then its all "no no - its fine! LAWL@U wanting your raid to do bad!"

Double standard much?


Well, I dont care if dps is off-healing themselves and I posted as such in that thread. It is Blizzard's intention that hybrids fill "off-roles" well. Also, tanks did not post that drivel..a healer did.
As far as yelling about a hunter having growl on...I dont yell but I do not like it when agro is ping-ponging back and forth and the boss is turning every which way, spraying a conal attack on the enitre group. I also dont like it when the hunter fails to heal his pet, it dies, the mobs are loose and the group wipes....only to hear the hunter complain that the healer didnt heal his pet....surely you would agree that the safety and success of the group is more assured when ONE target has agro through the entire fight....the boss stays facing one way and ideally only the tank needs heals. Most of the time, tanks become unhinged when they lose agro...if you find one that doesnt care about it....find another group.
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90 Human Priest
10500
It doesn't feel natural, it's kind of crazy that they designed a fight to be like that but all it does is show some crazy numbers by the tank that the DPS won't be able to achieve. It's balanced around it and it is a "unique" situation. You don't have to like it but it is best to just move on.
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97 Human Warrior
10825
12/21/2012 09:36 AMPosted by Azazel
It doesn't feel natural, it's kind of crazy that they designed a fight to be like that but all it does is show some crazy numbers by the tank that the DPS won't be able to achieve. It's balanced around it and it is a "unique" situation. You don't have to like it but it is best to just move on.


I think it is Blizzard's way to stick it to all those recount obsessed dps who come to these forums complaining that some other dps spec needs to be nerfed. I find it funny that some dps are so caught up in their own recount numbers that something as meaningless as this irks them. So, I think vengeance needs to be buffed....tanks should be one-shotting bosses.
Edited by Oaklander on 12/21/2012 11:11 AM PST
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12/21/2012 11:05 AMPosted by Oaklander
It doesn't feel natural, it's kind of crazy that they designed a fight to be like that but all it does is show some crazy numbers by the tank that the DPS won't be able to achieve. It's balanced around it and it is a "unique" situation. You don't have to like it but it is best to just move on.


I think it is Blizzard's way to stick it to all those recount obsessed dps who come to these forums complaining that some other dps spec needs to be nerfed. I find it funny that some dps are so caught up in their own recount numbers that something as meaningless as this irks them. So, I think vengeance needs to be buffed....tanks should be one-shotting bosses.


i see it now...

the return of the reckoning bomb!
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90 Human Death Knight
10940
The OP's problem is he probably is marksman. For AoE survival rips it up. Multishot can be used very often since one crit makes it cost half energy (and that tends to stay up whole time) and serpent spread makes sure they are hitting all mobs for heavy numbers. I saw hunters doubling everyone elses numbers in raids on AoE packs due to this. checked recount and serpent sting between dot and instant damage from survival was 60% of his total damage. and that is all just passive damage from multishot. As to the guy who said his warrior tank beats out his groups every time, whats your secret? my DK tank can top meters, but my warrior tank has horrible damage as they have tons of defensive CDs but so few good attacks. single target you basically just spam shield slam and devestate. (possibly revenge if you have it glyphed). Other than that, its just popping defensive cooldowns. Unless you are geared way better than rest of group i dont see how you top DPS. Even in AoE, you have tclap which is low-moderate damage on a 6 second cooldown, shockwave medium damage on 20 sec cooldown, and revenge only hits 3 targets. Did you take bladestorm instead of shockwave?
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90 Night Elf Druid
6630
Tank damage is a bit wonky at the moment, but it doesn't really bother me. I would rather see threat gen buffed and vengeance nerfed a little though.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
1. Don't necro.
2. The only fight a tank should be beating a DPSer on is Wind Lord. Generally there have been a couple fights in an expansion where the tanks will, due to fight mechanics, top damage meters. WotLK had Festergut. Cataclysm had Baleroc. Mists has Wind-Lord.

Outside of gimmicks like that, tanks are about half the damage of a DPSer. If a tank is beating you on other fights, there's either a huge skill difference or a huge gear difference.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
The tank was not the top damage on Festergut. Well, my tanks weren't anyway, probably because they were really bad.
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90 Human Warrior
10675
tanks seem to be topping a fair amount of fights this tier

IT AIN'T NATURAL!


er.... no. Really... no. There is exactly 1 fight this tier where tanks will lead dps meters.
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100 Orc Warlock
12615
On any fight other than windlord, if a tank beats you in dps, you need to learn to play, no offense.
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90 Tauren Paladin
11270
Does this really bother you?

A tank needs vengeance to pump out that kind of dps

Tanks wont replace you
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