Has Alliance aggression been retconned out?

90 Undead Warlock
6505
From Cataclysm.

Specifically I'd like to point out the southern barrens, which the entire conflict was simply glazed over in Tides of War. It's wasn't just Taurajo that happened there, and the invasion wasn't a counter attack for Ashenvale because there's a quest that states that the fighting there happened right before the Barrens split in two, while Ashenvale takes place after Azhara and Gilneas If Wolfheart is accurate.

The reason I ask this is because the Alliance was doing some bad things in the Barrens that seem to have been forgotten by Blizzard in order to whitewash the entire faction for Mists.

Taurajo has been talked about to death.

Northwatch Hold was firing at Neutral and Horde ships and actively blockaded Ratchet, and in the quests to go break the blockade I noticed there a Tauren head hung from one of the trees outside Northwatch hold (it might be the head of one of the pirate who used to be in the area though, it's never actually talked about who it was from in the quest texts), from the area its in it strongly points to the alliance hanging it from the tree.

At Honor's Stand there were captured orcs who were being beaten, theres a quest where one old orc says when he spoke out against the beating of prisoners the alliance took him and kicked him in the head until he went blind.

None of this is mentioned in Tides of War, only thing brought up was Taurajo and it was brief and pretty much just tried to make the Tauren from Vendetta point look like they were overreacting (It even said that Baine banished them from Thunder Bluff for this, which pretty much ruined him for me)

I'm not defending the Horde, but it annoys me to no end that both the book and Mists are painting the Alliance as victims by making it just look like Garrosh is attacking Northwatch and Thereamore unprovoked, Jaina never spoke out against the Alliance using her own city for a massive invasion point with the Theramore super highway all the way to the Barrens, but then turns around and paints Theramore as a peaceful city that is being attacked solely because Garrosh wants to conquer Kalimdor. And it still makes me cringe when the Alliance says the "we didn't start this war, but we'll be the ones to finish it" line on several occasions. If anything, the Alliance started the war in that part of Kalimdor, and then Garrosh finished it.
Edited by Mephelis on 12/10/2012 7:07 AM PST
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99 Troll Hunter
13620
12/10/2012 07:04 AMPosted by Mephelis
It even said that Baine banished them from Thunder Bluff for this, which pretty much ruined him for me

Are you freaking serious...?

12/10/2012 07:04 AMPosted by Mephelis
I'm not defending the Horde, but it annoys me to no end that both the book and Mists are painting the Alliance as victims by making it just look like Garrosh is attacking Northwatch and Thereamore unprovoked, Jaina never spoke out against the Alliance using her own city for a massive invasion point with the Theramore super highway all the way to the Barrens, but then turns around and paints Theramore as a peaceful city that is being attacked solely because Garrosh wants to conquer Kalimdor. And it still makes me cringe when the Alliance says the "we didn't start this war, but we'll be the ones to finish it" line on several occasions.

I agree. I'm not defending Garrosh, and I think he is a horrible person and must be dealt with, but I can't stand how everything the Alliance does is either whitewashed or white knighted, no matter how actually vicious it is.
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90 Undead Warlock
6505
12/10/2012 07:09 AMPosted by Pyronaptor
It even said that Baine banished them from Thunder Bluff for this, which pretty much ruined him for me

Are you freaking serious...?

I agree. I'm not defending Garrosh, and I think he is a horrible person and must be dealt with, but I can't stand how everything the Alliance does is either whitewashed or white knighted, no matter how actually vicious it is.


Yes, its says that he made it so those Tauren were not allowed to return to Thunder Bluff, "but he took no further action against them". That one line ruined any respect I ever had for Baine.

Also keep in mind that Jaina has been one of my favorite characters ever since Warcraft 3, but Theramore really did have it coming. If Garrosh had blown it up out of retaliation (which he SHOULD have at least used as an excuse) for the Barrens, the Horde would be cheering him on right now on the forums
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96 Troll Shaman
5540
Ostensibly, yeah.
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35 Human Warrior
160
Is that Baine thing true? Wow.
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
12/10/2012 07:04 AMPosted by Mephelis
(It even said that Baine banished them from Thunder Bluff for this, which pretty much ruined him for me)


ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
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100 Human Death Knight
10985
Oh yeah I thought that bit was pretty well known. >> Here's the passage.

In response to the aggression, Baine did what he felt was best to keep his people safe. The road to Mulgore had once been open; now what had been dubbed the Great Gate shut out any possibility of a massive Alliance incursion. Most tauren were content with the erection of the gate and did not burn for revenge. Others were still aching from the attack. He could not condemn these people. Baine did not rule with a tight grasp; the tauren followed him willingly and with love--perhaps mostly out of respect for his father, but with openness in their hearts nonetheless. Those who disagreed with Baine's decisions, like many Grimtotem, or the tauren who chose to strike back at the Alliance from Vendetta Point, were expelled from Thunder Bluff but otherwise suffered no repercussions.
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
Spineless munchkin. He's going to get the tauren wiped out like that.
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100 Human Warrior
16100
1) The Baine part is hilarious.

2) The aggression in Cataclysm as far as the game's reasoning seems to go, started after the Ashenvale conflict.

Wolfheart, as I've heard, is very rarely mentioned or referred to in the game and might as well exist in a vacuum. It doesn't seem like it has much of a bearing on the story, so it seems that the aggression is in response to the attacks in Ashenvale.

12/10/2012 07:04 AMPosted by Mephelis
Northwatch Hold was firing at Neutral and Horde ships and actively blockaded Ratchet


At the time Northwatch was not a part of Theramore's forces. I'm pretty sure they were Kul'Tiras and Theramore acquired the fortress later. If I recall correctly, Alliance also got a quest to go clear the place out.

12/10/2012 07:04 AMPosted by Mephelis
Jaina never spoke out against the Alliance using her own city for a massive invasion point with the Theramore super highway all the way to the Barrens, but then turns around and paints Theramore as a peaceful city that is being attacked solely because Garrosh wants to conquer Kalimdor.


Jaina didn't want war, that much is clear. She dedicated her land and resources to the fighting for peace, while Garrosh fights for conquest and spite. Theramore was a valid target, but it doesn't mean she can't get pissed about it. She likely has a very different view of Theramore than the average orc does (To be fair, the average orc hates anything that doesn't bend over backwards for them.)

12/10/2012 07:04 AMPosted by Mephelis
And it still makes me cringe when the Alliance says the "we didn't start this war, but we'll be the ones to finish it" line on several occasions. If anything, the Alliance started the war in that part of Kalimdor, and then Garrosh finished it.


Whether you believe the aggression occurred because of logging or that whole Sentinel murder incident, to the Alliance, the Horde started this war. And if Garrosh was warring simply for prosperity for the Horde, he'd know when to stop.

Alliance has never been some sort of oppressive authoritarian state that's just keeping the primitive cultures down. They're fighting because they know what the Horde (Orcs) will do if they gain too much traction, as Garrosh is proving. They also got kicked around a lot in Vanilla while the Horde suffered no repercussions, so it was about time the Alliance got its !@# in gear.
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
12/10/2012 09:01 AMPosted by Mordstreich
1) The Baine part is hilarious.


He's like Jaina but -more- self destructive- and without any actual interactions with the Alliance besides having tea with Jaina and Anduin. He hasn't ever fought alongside them or anything, literally nothing to base this friendship and faith on Ugh.

Also: APPLYING TRIBAL CULTURE TO AN INDUSTRIAL WORLD GUYS

EDIT:
12/10/2012 09:01 AMPosted by Mordstreich
At the time Northwatch was not a part of Theramore's forces. I'm pretty sure they were Kul'Tiras and Theramore acquired the fortress later. If I recall correctly, Alliance also got a quest to go clear the place out.


You're thinking of Tiragarde, in Durotar. Northwatch has been Theramoore's since Daelin died.
Edited by Skytotem on 12/10/2012 9:06 AM PST
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100 Human Warrior
16100
12/10/2012 09:05 AMPosted by Skytotem
You're thinking of Tiragarde, in Durotar. Northwatch has been Theramoore's since Daelin died.


I dunno, I seem to remember Northwatch was acting crazy because they were Daelin supporters, more or less Kul'tiras. And maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but I could have sworn that elf sailor guy tells Alliance to go help clear it out too, but it's been ages.

Regardless, that doesn't seem like anything Theramore would be doing prior to Cataclysm. Cataclysm was when Jaina actually pledged her nation to the war effort, and that quest technically happened before then.
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:The_Guns_of_Northwatch_(old)

I'd really love to see Alliance players collect Theramoore medals >.>
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12/10/2012 09:01 AMPosted by Mordstreich
At the time Northwatch was not a part of Theramore's forces. I'm pretty sure they were Kul'Tiras and Theramore acquired the fortress later. If I recall correctly, Alliance also got a quest to go clear the place out.


You're thinking of Tiragarde Keep in Durotar. Northwatch Hold to my knowledge was always officially part of the Kingdom of Theramore, but seemed to act autonomously more often then not. Pre-Cataclysm the occupants of Northwatch Keep had a tendency to fire on Pirate ships who docked at Ratchet, and were friendly to the Alliance.

It wasn't until the event of Tides of War that the Keep changed hands at all, and is now presumably under Stormwind jurisdiction (which likely absorbed what was left of the Kingdom of Theramore).
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100 Human Warrior
16100
I stand corrected then, however it seems that quest might have been retconned since Smythe and Whessan are questgivers, which is sort of silly. Should have been unambiguously Daelin supporters wearing Theramore tabards so it makes the Horde THINK the Alliance is behind this with a reason to get mad over it.
Edited by Mordstreich on 12/10/2012 9:18 AM PST
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
But that would imply the Alliance could do something underhanded with less than pure intentions.
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100 Human Warrior
16100
I'd be okay with that if we saw more Orcs with good intentions. Emphasis on see, not hear about in a book.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5420
Yes. We need to see this stuff in game. Hearing about it happening in a book maybe 5% of WoW players will buy isn;t going to help Blizzard tell their story.
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
12/10/2012 09:23 AMPosted by Kynrind
Yes. We need to see this stuff in game. Hearing about it happening in a book maybe 5% of WoW players will buy isn;t going to help Blizzard tell their story.


Agreed, books should be stories concerning characters and events that aren't tied up in current events, or would be difficult to portray/address.

Like the Troll Wars, or War of the Shifting Sands, or War of Three Hammers or whatever.
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91 Undead Warlock
7410
Northwatch was founded by Theramore after the Daelin Conflict, and it was noted, several times, that the Horde widely considered it a act of agression, building a fortress in Horde land. Thrall wanted Northwatch to be torn down, but Jaina didn't because she would loose the faith of her people, who wanted it to remain.

When Theramore reinforced it, it was considered a act of war and the Horde, under Thrall's orders, attacked Northwatch. The whole thing was sorted out, but the fact remains that Northwatch has always been a sore spot with the Horde, considering it was attacked, it really isn't that shocking that the gunmen are trigger happy.

12/10/2012 09:17 AMPosted by Mordstreich
I stand corrected then, however it seems that quest might have been retconned since Smythe and Whessan are questgivers, which is sort of silly. Should have been unambiguously Daelin supporters wearing Theramore tabards so it makes the Horde THINK the Alliance is behind this with a reason to get mad over it.


Wht would making it Daelin supports make it any better or worse than normal Theramore soldiers?
Edited by Ximothy on 12/10/2012 9:41 AM PST
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100 Human Warrior
16100
12/10/2012 09:37 AMPosted by Ximothy
Even if it was a Horde ship they were shooting at, why Whitewash it like you want? What point does that serve?


It wouldn't whitewash it anymore than saying the Wrathgate was all Putress and wasn't a result of Sylvanas keeping a dreadlord/ordering the blight to be made. There's other things going on here, but to the Horde it would look like it was the Alliance thus causing a misunderstanding, however it would prove that the Alliance races are also capable of savagery.

But as you said, they were pirate/neutral ships, so that's probably the reasoning there.
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