Has Alliance aggression been retconned out?

100 Human Warlock
14115
From Cataclysm.

Specifically I'd like to point out the southern barrens, which the entire conflict was simply glazed over in Tides of War. It's wasn't just Taurajo that happened there, and the invasion wasn't a counter attack for Ashenvale because there's a quest that states that the fighting there happened right before the Barrens split in two, while Ashenvale takes place after Azhara and Gilneas If Wolfheart is accurate.

The reason I ask this is because the Alliance was doing some bad things in the Barrens that seem to have been forgotten by Blizzard in order to whitewash the entire faction for Mists.

Taurajo has been talked about to death.

Northwatch Hold was firing at Neutral and Horde ships and actively blockaded Ratchet, and in the quests to go break the blockade I noticed there a Tauren head hung from one of the trees outside Northwatch hold (it might be the head of one of the pirate who used to be in the area though, it's never actually talked about who it was from in the quest texts), from the area its in it strongly points to the alliance hanging it from the tree.

At Honor's Stand there were captured orcs who were being beaten, theres a quest where one old orc says when he spoke out against the beating of prisoners the alliance took him and kicked him in the head until he went blind.

None of this is mentioned in Tides of War, only thing brought up was Taurajo and it was brief and pretty much just tried to make the Tauren from Vendetta point look like they were overreacting (It even said that Baine banished them from Thunder Bluff for this, which pretty much ruined him for me)

I'm not defending the Horde, but it annoys me to no end that both the book and Mists are painting the Alliance as victims by making it just look like Garrosh is attacking Northwatch and Thereamore unprovoked, Jaina never spoke out against the Alliance using her own city for a massive invasion point with the Theramore super highway all the way to the Barrens, but then turns around and paints Theramore as a peaceful city that is being attacked solely because Garrosh wants to conquer Kalimdor. And it still makes me cringe when the Alliance says the "we didn't start this war, but we'll be the ones to finish it" line on several occasions. If anything, the Alliance started the war in that part of Kalimdor, and then Garrosh finished it.


The "What came first" deal has been talked over to death. But, in short, the quest giver either actively lies to you or Blizz was too lazy to redo the quest since it is confirmed by Blizzard AND the books that the Ashenvale invasion came before the Barren's invasion.
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41 Gnome Priest
310
Hey, I know the alliance is evil and you will have an endless number of horde apologists agreeing with you but here was the answer from Blizzard about why the Alliance was in the Barrens:

Q:
The Alliance army who invaded the Barrens wore the tabard of Theramore. Were they under Jaina Proudmoore's command? And their invasion happened way before the time of the incoming destruction of Theramore incident, so what's the reason behind their attack on Orgrimmar's territory? It seems the Alliance and the Horde were already in total war in Cataclysm.

A:
Because Garrosh wants to defeat the night elves and conquer the whole of Kalimdor under the banner of the Horde. So the humans of Theramore sent their army and tried to establish a military line between the night elf territory and Theramore. But it seems the result is not what they expected.


http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1088687-Cataclysm-and-Mists-of-Pandaria-Q-amp-A

Hopefully this thread is over now.
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
How is that even relevant? We knew that already. Also, no one is claiming the Alliance is evil...
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90 Human Warlock
13830
This reminds me of who shot first, Han or Greedo.
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41 Gnome Priest
310
12/10/2012 05:14 PMPosted by Skytotem
How is that even relevant? We knew that already.


Ummm, op was saying that.

Specifically I'd like to point out the southern barrens, which the entire conflict was simply glazed over in Tides of War. It's wasn't just Taurajo that happened there, and the invasion wasn't a counter attack for Ashenvale because there's a quest that states that the fighting there happened right before the Barrens split in two, while Ashenvale takes place after Azhara and Gilneas If Wolfheart is accurate.
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No matter how justified the Alliance is in going to war with the Horde, they've retconned everything to the point that everything is Garrosh's fault.


Thus, if you don't like, or disagree with the Alliance, you must be evil.


To be fair, on our side, we're supposed to focus all our hate on Garrosh and ignore the fact that the rest of the Horde is mostly going along with them, that Thrall set the the stage for Garrosh's triumph, that Sylvanas has probably killed twice as many living Alliance citizens during her Campaign as Garrosh did at Theramore, etc.

So it's not like the Horde's the only one suffering from dissonance here.
Edited by Jaelara on 12/10/2012 5:28 PM PST
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
To be fair, on our side, we're supposed to focus all our hate on Garrosh and ignore the fact that the rest of the Horde is mostly going along with them, that Thrall set the the stage for Garrosh's triumph, etc.

So it's not like the Horde's the only one suffering from dissonance here.


Given that all of our characters had to drop their brains and their morals to get the war started to begin with, I have trouble sympathizing. (morals alone would be fine fine, but -both-?)
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
12/10/2012 11:23 AMPosted by Shippyship
I'm about halfway through and so far there's not really anything that implies the barrens invasion hasn't happened.


That's because it becomes really obvious at the end.

That said, you don't think that the fact that most of the Alliance leadership is apparently unaware that they're at war is a bit suspicious if there was an Alliance first-strike?

How exactly would Garrosh's surprise invasion have been a surprise if the Alliance was already at war with the Horde?

You already noted that it said that Jaina stayed in Theramore to organize forces. This line is said at a time when Garrosh's invasion of Ashenvale is already underway. "Organizing" forces, particularly in the wake of the Cataclysm, is not the same as deploying them.

And you'd think that Garrosh would at least bring up the Barrens once or twice in his inner monologue but he doesn't mention it even once.
Edited by Vyrin on 12/10/2012 5:36 PM PST
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
12/10/2012 05:22 PMPosted by Healstime
Ummm, op was saying that.


didn't that get cleared up in the first few pages? I thought the greater issue here was that the Alliance seems to keep getting surprised that they've been at war with the Horde... when they've been launching counterattacks to the Horde's aggression for awhile?
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41 Gnome Priest
310
12/10/2012 05:43 PMPosted by Skytotem
Ummm, op was saying that.


didn't that get cleared up in the first few pages? I thought the greater issue here was that the Alliance seems to keep getting surprised that they've been at war with the Horde... when they've been launching counterattacks to the Horde's aggression for awhile?


Nah, there was just a bunch of people talking about timelines and agreeing with the op for the most part. Even the last few posts on page two were still confused about the timeline. Don't worry, there was no "clearing up".
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100 Night Elf Hunter
20595
12/10/2012 05:27 PMPosted by Skytotem
Given that all of our characters had to drop their brains and their morals to get the war started to begin with, I have trouble sympathizing. (morals alone would be fine fine, but -both-?)


Cairne and Magni were both sacrificed straight up because they are too rational for stupid wars.
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90 Draenei Paladin
15610
I have a problem with the fact that Jaina didn't seem to get updated much at all in Cataclysm, besides the whole Theramore thing. If I recall correctly (and please point me out if I'm wrong here) none of the quests in Dustwallow or even the Barrens gave specific input to Jaina's opinion on the conflict. I remember being really puzzled by that and disappointed that all her questlines were old ones from Vanilla. As I recall, the reason the Alliance was so active in the Southern Barrens was to create a highway that would allow the Alliance Nations in the Eastern Kingdoms a more direct route to their allies in Kalimdor.

I do agree with many of the people who point out that, from a military strategy point, Theramore had to go. It's extremely close to Orgrimmar, and it was working on creating supply lines to aid the Alliance efforts in Ashenvale. Its destruction was terrible, and look forward to taking down Garrosh's war-mongering !@#, but it makes perfect sense if one adopts the logic of world domination that he seems to be operating with. Theramore is kind of like our Pearl Harbor, in more ways than one.

Someone here also said that the novel Wolfheart doesn't ever get referenced ingame. My only suggestion of how one could see it being incorporated is how Varian seems extremely level-headed in the Operation: Shieldwall questlines. He almost seems to have a personality revamp, compared to his actions at the Wrathgate. I don't think this is explicitly stated anywhere, but I attributed it to the tribulations he went through back in Wolfheart. Gaining a better appreciation for his son and sobering up, etc.
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
Nah, there was just a bunch of people talking about timelines and agreeing with the op for the most part. Even the last few posts on page two were still confused about the timeline. Don't worry, there was no "clearing up".


Blizz needs to put an end to this timeline nonsense.
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41 Gnome Priest
310
12/10/2012 06:50 PMPosted by Skytotem
Nah, there was just a bunch of people talking about timelines and agreeing with the op for the most part. Even the last few posts on page two were still confused about the timeline. Don't worry, there was no "clearing up".


Blizz needs to put an end to this timeline nonsense.


It would be nice, but that would make them revisit old lore, and we know how much they hate that. It's much easier to retcon something when they feel it works better.
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100 Worgen Rogue
18110


I do agree with many of the people who point out that, from a military strategy point, Theramore had to go. It's extremely close to Orgrimmar, and it was working on creating supply lines to aid the Alliance efforts in Ashenvale. Its destruction was terrible, and look forward to taking down Garrosh's war-mongering !@#, but it makes perfect sense if one adopts the logic of world domination that he seems to be operating with. Theramore is kind of like our Pearl Harbor, in more ways than one.

See, my personal issue with Theramore was never that it was a target. It's always been that it being 'our reason to fight' is where my issue comes up with. Before Theramore, the Alliance already had plenty of reasons of to want to fight. Hillsbrad, Gilneas, Western Plaguelands, and most anything that's occurred on the Forsaken front of things. For certain other folks Ashenvale, Stonetalon, and the like are pretty big potential motivators too.

Theramore could've been touted as 'another reason', but it seems forced to consider it '*the* reason'. Given, I personally think Theramore could've had potential as a long-winded siege that players got to participate in. But that's a different topic all together.
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41 Gnome Priest
310
See, my personal issue with Theramore was never that it was a target. It's always been that it being 'our reason to fight' is where my issue comes up with. Before Theramore, the Alliance already had plenty of reasons of to want to fight. Hillsbrad, Gilneas, Western Plaguelands, and most anything that's occurred on the Forsaken front of things. For certain other folks Ashenvale, Stonetalon, and the like are pretty big potential motivators too.

Theramore could've been touted as 'another reason', but it seems forced to consider it '*the* reason'. Given, I personally think Theramore could've had potential as a long-winded siege that players got to participate in. But that's a different topic all together.


Well the alliance didn't know they were in a war until Theramore blew up then they really started to consider whether or not to think about fighting the horde.
Edited by Healstime on 12/10/2012 8:03 PM PST
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100 Worgen Rogue
18110
See, my personal issue with Theramore was never that it was a target. It's always been that it being 'our reason to fight' is where my issue comes up with. Before Theramore, the Alliance already had plenty of reasons of to want to fight. Hillsbrad, Gilneas, Western Plaguelands, and most anything that's occurred on the Forsaken front of things. For certain other folks Ashenvale, Stonetalon, and the like are pretty big potential motivators too.

Theramore could've been touted as 'another reason', but it seems forced to consider it '*the* reason'. Given, I personally think Theramore could've had potential as a long-winded siege that players got to participate in. But that's a different topic all together.


Well the alliance didn't know they were in a war until Theramore blew up then they really started to consider whether or not to think about fighting the horde.

Eh. The overall atrocities the Forsaken alone have committed since their sorta Cata villainization could've easily been enough to start war and conflict over. Plague bombing and the raising of the dead into Forsaken soldiers are things folks tend to get quite upset at.
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90 Human Warlock
11835

Well the alliance didn't know they were in a war until Theramore blew up then they really started to consider whether or not to think about fighting the horde.


Which, as others have said, makes no bloody sense.

That's like saying "Romans didn't know they were at war, until Hannibal cantered by the gates on his horse!" No. They damn well did. "Cannae just didn't get them fired up. Who cared about 50,000 dead? No one, that's who. What do you mean there was a Punic War before this one? Your facts won't get in the way of MY lore nonsense."

So, what? Every attack ON or BY the Horde was just water under the bridge? Maybe, somehow, it was all done in secret? Or maybe it just didn't happen because it is game-only continuity? Most NPCs in Warcraft, even peasants, seem to be literate. There are portals to other cities. Word of things clearly gets around. There's no secret police or propaganda machine in the Alliance keeping the people misinformed of all the !@#$-ups their leaders have made, losing one territory after another.

I mean, I could maybe buy it if that was the case. If the Alliance was like Iraq under Saddam, or North Korea basically ever, and there were criers in the street yelling about how :
"The Horde is Defeated in Southshore! Ten thousand prisoners taken! All Hiillsbrad residents cheer the mighty success of our Great Leader!"
:
"Horde offensive into Andorhal crushed without mercy! Sylvannas flees from battlefield! Great Leader vows 'all lands under sun and moon' soon to capitulate! All world celebrates victory of the Peoples Alliance Army!"
:
"Stonard completely and utterly destroyed by mighty and patriotic forces of the stalwart People's Alliance! Vast booty claimed! All peoples rejoice in victory, but sadly mourn the death of the patriotic commander Blueheart, who tragically died in battle with the Horde enemy along with many, many, many other officers. All right-thinking peoples weep for tragic loss!"
(you'll find Blueheart in an unmarked grave with an arrow in the back of the neck)
:
"Ashenvale safe from Horde for fifth straight year! Alliance leaders meet to remember great victory. Horde army 100,000 strong repulsed by Great Leader! Visitors not permitted in land of Ashenvale! No cameras!! Land is too safe for visitors or pictures!"
:
"All of Southern Barrens conquered by People's Alliance! 20 Horde airships destroyed in skirmish! Great Horde Fortress of Turajo razed to the ground! Generals promise Great Leader 'end of war' in two or three months!"
:
And so on and so forth...
until Theramore disappears off the map.

Yes, THEN, I'd buy that the Alliance didn't know it was really at war until Theramore. Or at least that they didn't know they were losing.

Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf, Iraqi Minister of Information
That was the guy.

"They're coming to surrender or be burned in their tanks."
"There are no American infidels in Baghdad. Never!"
"We have destroyed 2 tanks, fighter planes, 2 helicopters and their shovels - We have driven them back."
"We have them surrounded in their tanks"
"I triple guarantee you, there are no American soldiers in Baghdad."
"they are nowhere near the airport ..they are lost in the desert...they can not read a compass...they are retarded."
"Today we slaughtered them in the airport. They are out of Saddam International Airport."
"They're not even [within] 100 miles [of Baghdad]. They are not in any place. They hold no place in Iraq. This is an illusion ... they are trying to sell to the others an illusion."

And his very best quote, an internet legend:
"My feelings - as usual - we will slaughter them all"

Yeah. If the Alliance had been fed that for the last two expansions, not only would it be funny as hell, but then Theramore would make sense.
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41 Gnome Priest
310
@Sardana: I completely agree, it just feel that is how Blizzard presented it. It's as if the horde aggression across every front wasn't enough to get them motivated. Theramore was suppose to be the thing that made them realize they needed to fight.

They know the Alliance had no story in Cataclysm so they were like "Oh we completely forgot to write something for that other faction, maybe now we will make an important event that will make them feel like they are at war". The players knew that, but in Cataclysm our leadership didn't, and in a majority of the zones we didn't. In order for the alliance to have made propaganda about winning a war, they would have had to realize they are fighting someone.
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100 Gnome Warlock
11025
I find it even more frustrating that even now the alliance seems content trying to "keep horde agression in check" in pandaria rather than defending its own borders from the undead, protecting the forests in ashenvale or actually actively engage and destroy any other horde holdings.

It still feels as if Blizzard are holding the Alliance back because we aren't allowed to attack the horde only Garrosh...
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