Has Alliance aggression been retconned out?

90 Undead Warlock
6505
Long story short, The Alliance started the war first, then blizz decided to retcon it out so that they can whitewash one faction and beat the other with the villain bat.

So the Horde started the war in the new canon because they wanted to make Garrosh the bad guy. But chronologically the Alliance started it.
Edited by Mephelis on 12/10/2012 10:15 PM PST
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90 Human Warrior
16790
I'd love something like this for the Alliance after Siege of Org.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r39hIAMbxRs
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90 Night Elf Priest
16545
I find it even more frustrating that even now the alliance seems content trying to "keep horde agression in check" in pandaria rather than defending its own borders from the undead, protecting the forests in ashenvale or actually actively engage and destroy any other horde holdings.

It still feels as if Blizzard are holding the Alliance back because we aren't allowed to attack the horde only Garrosh...


We do have to stop Garrosh on Pandaria though. The Divine Bell's event shows that we cannot, under any circumstances, allow him to take over the land and take its plentiful resources and artifacts for the Horde, which would be devastating for the Alliance.

Most of Garrosh's invasions on the rest of the world have been kept in check. Ashenvale, Stonetalon, even the crater of Theramore, are returned into Alliance hands. Gilneas is still (probably) a battleground, probably held at a standstill against the Forsaken. Pandaria is his current target, that's where we're stopping him.
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12/10/2012 09:09 AMPosted by Mordstreich
I dunno, I seem to remember Northwatch was acting crazy because they were Daelin supporters, more or less Kul'tiras. And maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but I could have sworn that elf sailor guy tells Alliance to go help clear it out too, but it's been ages.


Sorry to drag this back, BUT:

Pre-Cataclysm, it was pirates. This was changed to the Northwatch/Kul Tiras soldiers, who were harassing all ships for potential Horde supplies and generally being a nuisance. Likely perfectly viable in a time of war, but this was happening in a neutral Goblin port city, and one thing's for certain? NEVER mess with a goblin's profits.

12/10/2012 10:34 PMPosted by Resileaf
Most of Garrosh's invasions on the rest of the world have been kept in check. Ashenvale, Stonetalon, even the crater of Theramore, are returned into Alliance hands. Gilneas is still (probably) a battleground, probably held at a standstill against the Forsaken. Pandaria is his current target, that's where we're stopping him.


This makes me curious if, in the event the Horde actually DOES manage to take Pandaria, that organizations like the Golden Lotus and the Shado-pan would actively work to push the Horde out of their homeland, along with aid from the Celestials. After all, they pushed the Mogu Empire back, and what would be different about the Horde?
Edited by Briswald on 12/10/2012 10:58 PM PST
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
Sorry to drag this back, BUT:

Pre-Cataclysm, it was pirates. This was changed to the Northwatch/Kul Tiras soldiers, who were harassing all ships for potential Horde supplies and generally being a nuisance. Likely perfectly viable in a time of war, but this was happening in a neutral Goblin port city, and one thing's for certain? NEVER mess with a goblin's profits.


Either way there's still this, Theramoore's never been nice to belfs

http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Twilight_of_the_Dawn_Runner
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90 Night Elf Priest
16545
Most of Garrosh's invasions on the rest of the world have been kept in check. Ashenvale, Stonetalon, even the crater of Theramore, are returned into Alliance hands. Gilneas is still (probably) a battleground, probably held at a standstill against the Forsaken. Pandaria is his current target, that's where we're stopping him.

This makes me curious if, in the event the Horde actually DOES manage to take Pandaria, that organizations like the Golden Lotus and the Shado-pan would actively work to push the Horde out of their homeland, along with aid from the Celestials. After all, they pushed the Mogu Empire back, and what would be different about the Horde?


Size, organization, tactics and technology. The mogu had one tactic; fear. The entire mogu society was driven on causing fear. The Horde is currently a larger, smarter organization that understands better how to take care of an enemy. The Horde possesses a superior technology to that of the Pandaren. Airships can lay waste to villages and temples from afar without risking any counter-attack. Furthermore, no one in Pandaria would know how to face that new enemy. The Shado-Pan hasn't fought anything else than Mogu, mantids, saurok or Sha. The Golden Lotus' only job was to protect the Vale against invaders, mainly Mogu. The Horde war machine can sweep across the whole continent if left unchecked by a superpower that has faced it in battle at many occasions.
Edited by Resileaf on 12/10/2012 11:07 PM PST
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90 Draenei Death Knight
1620
I would just like to throw out there that things are never black and white. From one leader and one city to the next the actions taken do not represent the whole of a faction. There will be noble members of both the Horde and the Alliance as well as despicable ones.
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90 Draenei Shaman
11990
Long story short, The Alliance started the war first, then blizz decided to retcon it out so that they can whitewash one faction and beat the other with the villain bat.

So the Horde started the war in the new canon because they wanted to make Garrosh the bad guy. But chronologically the Alliance started it.


As far as I can tell Wolfheart happened before the invasion of the Barrens. Granted this means they may have to retcon a few things.
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85 Dwarf Mage
3650
Long story short, The Alliance started the war first, then blizz decided to retcon it out so that they can whitewash one faction and beat the other with the villain bat.


This is a giant load. One look at the beginning of the Cataclysm manual will tell you EXACTLY what happened. Garrosh renewed the invasion of Ashenvale after the loose truce after Northrend. Maybe if you did some research and critical thinking you would understand that Theramore, the nation most opposed to the war at that point, moved into the Barrens after they saw the Horde re-ignite their war of aggression.
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90 Troll Shaman
5420
12/11/2012 11:51 AMPosted by Archimkazile
Long story short, The Alliance started the war first, then blizz decided to retcon it out so that they can whitewash one faction and beat the other with the villain bat.


This is a giant load. One look at the beginning of the Cataclysm manual will tell you EXACTLY what happened. Garrosh renewed the invasion of Ashenvale after the loose truce after Northrend. Maybe if you did some research and critical thinking you would understand that Theramore, the nation most opposed to the war at that point, moved into the Barrens after they saw the Horde re-ignite their war of aggression.

Actually, the Horde only reignited the Ashenvale campaign after the Cataclysm, while Theramore (initially) invaded the Barrens before the Cataclysm accidentally thwarted their plan of attack.

Later canon instead says Theramore only did their stunt in the Barrens afterwards.

While the latter is canon and the former no longer, he is right in pointing out that as early as the beta, the earliest conflict known to have occurred had been started by the Alliance.
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85 Dwarf Mage
3650
While the latter is canon and the former no longer, he is right in pointing out that as early as the beta, the earliest conflict known to have occurred had been started by the Alliance.


And as early as release of Cata, in the very game manual, this was changed to (logically) Garrosh's war of aggression starting with Ashenvale with the Alliance push in the Barrens as a response.

Because the whole of Garrosh's idiocy-and hot-headedness was leading up to him starting a war just to put the Orcs on top of everyone else because he believes them to be the master race. From taking resources this expanded into the attempt at continental conquest of Kalimdor, then conquest of Eastern Kingdoms with the failed Gilneas invasion, and now as of "Tides of War" he outright wants to eliminate all Alliance races for good, and as of MoP he wants to abuse ancient evil artifacts to do it.

Add in a touch of racism towards fellow Horde members, not caring about what they want, and pushing his war over the well-being of anyone else in the Horde who disagree...what, you expected pre-MoP JAINA of all people to start the war in the Barrens? Despite that being COMPLETELY out of character for her to do so, and for it being (strangely enough for once) IN CHARACTER for Garrosh to do just that in Ashenvale?
Edited by Archimkazile on 12/11/2012 12:16 PM PST
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90 Troll Shaman
5420
So when new canon makes retroactive changes to the continuity, that's called a...
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85 Dwarf Mage
3650
So when new canon makes retroactive changes to the continuity, that's called a...


Yes, a retcon. What's your point, exactly? In the Cata beta, the Forsaken explicitly brainwashing new undead recruits was replaced with implicit subversion. I know which one is now canon (although the latter still makes more sense.) So there's no need for the Horde to get retentive about the new canon (that in reality is old canon, as old as the release manual) being made canon over the beta scenario. And again...would it really have made more sense for Pre-MoP Jaina to start things in the Barrens, instead of Garrosh who had been itching for all out war at every moment in WotLK? Is that what you wanted the story to be? Have the Alliance not only bungle the war during Cata, but somehow start it as well? With their most appeasing, pacifist character no less?

Sounds like a good story, man. /sarcasm
Edited by Archimkazile on 12/11/2012 12:28 PM PST
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90 Troll Shaman
5420
12/11/2012 12:27 PMPosted by Archimkazile
What's your point, exactly?

My point is the answer to the OP's question is yes.
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85 Dwarf Mage
3650
12/11/2012 12:30 PMPosted by Kellick
My point is the answer to the OP's question is yes.


And my elaboration unto that is yes, it was retconned as early as Cata's release. And the story makes much more sense because of it. Well, at least as much as it can with Garrosh around.
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90 Draenei Shaman
11990
So when new canon makes retroactive changes to the continuity, that's called a...


Its hard to call it canon when as you mentioned it was only in beta and never really expanded on live servers to my knowledge. In the end its a moot point. The Horde started this war, end of discussion.
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90 Troll Shaman
5420
12/11/2012 12:47 PMPosted by Zerde
Its hard to call it canon when as you mentioned it was only in beta and never really expanded on live servers to my knowledge.

It's still there right now.

12/11/2012 12:47 PMPosted by Zerde
The Horde started this war

I'm well aware of that. That's how retcons work.
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90 Orc Warrior
11065
Just to play devil's advocate.

Garrosh ordering the invasion of Gilneas is inescapable regardless of when the war started. But if the barrens invasion was post cata, then the next candidate is gilneas campaign. In that case the current horde vs. alliance conflict was still started by the alliance when they came to gilneas' aid.
Edited by Shippyship on 12/11/2012 1:00 PM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
11990
It's still there right now.


Here is my question to you. Did the Horde ever really STOP attacking Ashenvale? For all we know the Horde has still been continuing the skirmish long before Wolfheart and Jaina decided to act on it.

In any case there is still alot of unknowns regarding timeline. We dont know when Southshore was attacked, we dont know when Garrosh started his little plot to take over Ashenvale(heck with proper intelligence maybe the Alliance simply learned of what Garrosh was planning and decided to be proactive about it)

I'm well aware of that. That's how retcons work.


Does it really matter if it was a retcon. Heck, I was opposed to the eredar retcon but have certain realize long about it was good for the game and expanded on it. In the end it seem like a more logical story progression for Garrosh to start a war than for Jaina to start invading the barrens for no apparent reason.

I just find the whole theory that the retcon was being done to white wash the Alliance seem far fetched.

Garrosh ordering the invasion of Gilneas is inescapable regardless of when the war started. But if the barrens invasion was post cata, then the next candidate is gilneas campaign. In that case the current horde vs. alliance conflict was still started by the alliance when they came to gilneas' aid.


Of course if we were going that far than we can consider Thrall's action of not condemning the atrocities in Ashenvale as a catalyst for the war. Not to mention the slaughter of the night elves in that peace summit. Yes I know it was Twilight Hammer who committed those atrocities but the Alliance didnt know and the Horde certainly didnt condemn it.

Yes. We know that post Lich King, all hostilities were halted.


Yes it was halted post lich king, but then we dont really know what happened from the ending of the Shattering book to the beginning of Cata itself. For all we know after the slaughter at the peace summit things just took a turn for the worse. Or the night elves could simply have learned of Garrosh little plan to take over Ashenvale.
Edited by Zerde on 12/11/2012 1:19 PM PST
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90 Troll Shaman
5420
12/11/2012 01:09 PMPosted by Zerde
Did the Horde ever really STOP attacking Ashenvale?

Yes. We know that post Lich King, all hostilities were halted.
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