Blizzard says they want normals hard.

90 Human Priest
14595
See your actually agreeing with me to some extent.

Is people playing LFR for 3-4 months out of every 6-7 allright, I dont know... Its allright for me. I dont know if thats allright for blizzard.


The thing is LFR isn't the only thing to do. There's a ton more to do in this game, a ton of reasons to stay subbed.

Like I said before, if you meet both of these conditions:
a) Raiding is the only thing you care to do in WoW
b) you're too bad/casual for normal modes

Then sure, quit whenever you get bored/done with LFR.
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
17665
My one gripe is the upgrade scheme they've hit upon has made casual PvP too unpleasant to do as an occasional diversion. This is related to the alt-unfriendliness of the MoP design, which they've admitted is a problem (see GC tweets). That's kind of off to an angle from the question of raid tuning, though.


PvP is a whole nother section, but ever since they added resilience, it went from fun to work.
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90 Undead Mage
10315
but tier 14 is most closely compared with tier 11 and its aroundish the same difficulty,


12/11/2012 12:47 PMPosted by Sarosha
tier 11


Nooooooooooooooope.
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44 Pandaren Monk
6305


If you read anything anyone posted, you'd already know that everyones response is you're asking the wrong question. LFR IS good enough for those players who don't want to do what the vast majority of raiders do, and that's set up a form of organized raiding which even you have quoted several times you do not do.

That is what LFR is for, it's to give people content in which otherwise they would not have content. Normal and Heroic modes are for organized groups, heroic being for the more "cutting" edge organized groups.

There's been about 50 people telling you you're wrong, and now even blizzard is telling you you're wrong. You're clearly fighting a losing battle which you have no chance of winning, so my advice would be instead of throwing a temper tantrum like a 5 year old threatening to quit every other thread, just quit already.


You act like Blizzard never says one thing then does something else a month later now that they have "new information" or by saying nothing at all.

Plus the fact that many people online disagree with something does not make it wrong.

The reality is that Blizzard likely feels like they got this Tier perfect. Just like they say they have PvP balanced and PvE DPS/HPS balanced when an expansion launches.

Then they make changes to this "balanced" content as they realize it was not as balanced as they thought.

The fact is even if they do get it right if enough people start to leave they will react like they always do in an attempt to get people back or get them to stay.

So if enough people leave due to this Tier being too hard they will likely nerf it. They are trying to do this start of an expansion slightly different than the last with some added content in dailies and Pet Battles/Brawlers guild hoping this combined with a Tier 11 type difficulty in raiding is the right balance.

Only time will see if they are right.


90% of what you said has absolutely nothing to do with raid balance at all.

You guys problem is you're all basing the progression from LFR into normal from DS and thinking that it will apply to all raid tiers. That gradual nerf only happened because it's the same form of nerfing those choose to implement in BC for it's final tier (but in larger bursts), ICC (which was the same nerfing aura), as well as DS nerfing. Those were in place because they were throwing gear out to everyone because it outright didn't matter, give everyone something to stride for before the major gear reset of the next expansion.

People disagreeing with others doesn't make them wrong, people bringing up one case scenario's and thinking it will apply in the future without knowing how these nerfs roll out the trend on how this game progresses makes them wrong. That and, once again taking the presented statistics completely wrong without noticing that it's completely normal.

T14 WILL get nerfed, but it won't be until T15 is right around the corner (a few weeks) or is already launched.
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It's been clear for a while this was their intent. The interesting question now is what the overall reaction of the players will be to it, and whether Blizzard likes that reaction. It may be that it will all be fine, or fine with minor tweaks.

It's good enough that I'm playing (and plan for now to remain playing), and Sarosha is still here (will be watching if you really do leave next month, S!). So maybe they've hit a sweet spot.

My one gripe is the upgrade scheme they've hit upon has made casual PvP too unpleasant to do as an occasional diversion. This is related to the alt-unfriendliness of the MoP design, which they've admitted is a problem (see GC tweets). That's kind of off to an angle from the question of raid tuning, though.


This depends on what happens in the next month.

If Xrealm raiding comes in, nerfs, free xfers for christmas, I might in fact probably will stay.

If nothing happens, Im packing it in till 5.2 that doesnt mean Im done, just doing something else until blizzard changes course again, and anyone who has been here a while knows they will.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
PvP is a whole nother section, but ever since they added resilience, it went from fun to work.


Honestly, it dates slightly further back to their initial revamps with Battlegrounds even.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
7485
The funny thing about Sarosha is in the weeks of complaining he's done on the forums, he has NEVER posted a World of Logs link for his group. This makes me think that his group doesn't care about becoming better players, and instead whines about Blizzard not introducing nerfs fast enough this tier to push them through like they probably did in T13.
Edited by Snaptaunt on 12/11/2012 5:34 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
17665
12/11/2012 05:33 PMPosted by Snaptaunt
The funny thing about Sarosha is in the weeks of complaining he's done on the forums, he has NEVER posted a World of Logs link for his group. This makes me think that his group doesn't care about becoming better players, and instead whines about Blizzard not introducing nerfs fast enough this tier to push them through like they probably did in T13.


He outwardly admits he doesnt care about improvement, just nerfs
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90 Dwarf Rogue
16185
Sarosha actually seems pretty reasonable in this thread.

You're completely ignoring that Normal and Heroic Raiders also want 12 boss raids coming out faster (e.g. every 4-5 months), and the demand for a new raid depends more on that.

I think there is a need for nerfed normal modes at some point once content becomes a bit old. You make it hard at the start to appeal to more hardcore (but not quite hardmode) players, then nerf it later to appeal to more "casual" groups.

Theres two ways to do this - nerf it in one big hit once the next tier is released, or progressive nerfs while its still current. Blizzard seems to want to it the first way, which is fine. But this is going to require bringing out new tiers fairly regularly, every 6 months or so.

I really doubt if they have the resources to bring out well-designed tiers with 12+ bosses every 6 months though. I think they would do better to pace themselves to tiers with 8-10 bosses if they are going to aim to bring out tiers so fast. Otherwise they risk running out of steam like they seem to have done with DS.

Personally I think releasing 16 bosses at the start was a mistake, as it set expectations too high. They would have done better to stretch MSV out to 8-10 bosses then release HoF+Terrace as the 2nd tier.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
I really doubt if they have the resources to bring out well-designed tiers with 12+ bosses every 6 months though. I think they would do better to pace themselves to tiers with 8-10 bosses if they are going to aim to bring out tiers so fast. Otherwise they risk running out of steam like they seem to have done with DS.


To be fair, they actually do legitimately think Dragon Soul was a good thing.
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90 Worgen Druid
4810

Moving from stuck from stuck on SG to stuck on Elegon is an improvement, its jsut not a meaningful one.


This hurt my brain.

How can you be "stuck" on SG, but end up on Elegon? It's almost like they had some progression in there =p

[E] 8 hours behind QQ
Edited by Duboomchikin on 12/11/2012 7:38 PM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
13260
12/11/2012 12:45 PMPosted by Sarosha
Because improving is NEVER an option, right?


Improving is not never an options, but neither is it always an option for many different reasons.

Moving from stuck from stuck on SG to stuck on Elegon is an improvement, its jsut not a meaningful one.


Sarosha, that is progression raiding. You don't go into a raid and down all the bosses the first week. You down maybe one, maybe two and start on the next, rinse and repeat, and each week you get that little bit further into downing *all* the bosses. That's raiding.
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90 Orc Shaman
13750
12/11/2012 12:45 PMPosted by Sarosha
Because improving is NEVER an option, right?


Improving is not never an options, but neither is it always an option for many different reasons.

Moving from stuck from stuck on SG to stuck on Elegon is an improvement, its jsut not a meaningful one.


Palm on face.
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12/11/2012 10:00 PMPosted by Hyjinx


Improving is not never an options, but neither is it always an option for many different reasons.

Moving from stuck from stuck on SG to stuck on Elegon is an improvement, its jsut not a meaningful one.


Palm on face.


Yes, I listend to some advice and managed to get over being stuck on SG, made fairly decent progress over Feng/Garajal and Sk.

Now stuck on elegon and no matter how much we try changing things, its not getting any better.

So stuck...
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Im in a bad mood after hitting LFR sha's Hard enrage.

"HELP ON ADDS OMG!#@#@#!" - 12k DPS


you are kidding right....
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90 Draenei Death Knight
7485


Palm on face.


Yes, I listend to some advice and managed to get over being stuck on SG, made fairly decent progress over Feng/Garajal and Sk.

Now stuck on elegon and no matter how much we try changing things, its not getting any better.

So stuck...


That's called making progress... When you were stuck on SG you had 0 bosses down. Two weeks later you have 4 bosses down and you still say you're "stuck"?

It took me 4 weeks to down Elegon, but look at my progress now. You're only on week 2, so you'll probably down it in a few weeks max and cruise through the rest of normal mode if you're decent.
Edited by Snaptaunt on 12/12/2012 3:18 AM PST
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
17665
12/12/2012 03:15 AMPosted by Snaptaunt
That's called making progress... When you were stuck on SG you had 0 bosses down. Two weeks later you have 4 bosses down and you still say you're "stuck"?


I think he quoted "15 attempts"

Which is less than my pug attempted before we called it off for the night.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
10115
Looking for raid needs to go, i never thought blizzard could make me miss wrath of the lich king, i miss the days of pugging 10/25 toc and 10/25 ony, on all my alts, i hate doing lfr on them, its so boring Q_Q
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