Integrity in game and real life

90 Blood Elf Mage
4560
I have seen so much lack of decisiveness out of players through my guild in the form of new recruits. It seems like they hit and run and there is no reasonable explanation for this erratic behavior.

Do people not realize that this is a people oriented game?

I am making notes of all toons/people who pull toons/themselves without warning or discussion of how come or why.

This indicates to me there are many people who do not care of integrity, because they can remain cloaked anonymous after such actions. What is the solution? I am not sure but I think its time to start tracking toons/people for that type of behavior in a similar fashion to a work/employment record.

I know this is a game, but in many ways it is real person interaction. I put a lot of effort into building a positive attitude in my guild and it takes a lot of effort to keep things in line. Thought on starting a thread based on this topic is where I am now to track this for other Guild masters and weed out that kind of behavior.
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90 Human Hunter
12750
Uhh... Real ID, I suppose.

But is it such a big of a deal that you have to be put on surveillance for a little guild hopping? It seems a bit unreasonable.

Or do you mean bank ninjas? If so, you're responsible for the rules.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
4490
12/12/2012 04:37 PMPosted by Vandvia
I am making notes of all toons/people who pull toons/themselves without warning or discussion of how come or why.


I never ever understood why guild leaders had to know why I chose to leave a guild, They never once talk to me as an individual, most never cared if I logged into my guilded toon or what I did or did not do.. Most of the guilds I have been in no one takes any effort to get to know me.. unless I break the ice first.. and it seems I am always the one saying hi, can I help anyone tonight, what is going on tonight etc... No one really cares about my opinion or even what I want... til I leave.. and then I get whispers from the guild leader and a few guildies.. Why did you leave?? suddenly everyone cares?? can you not see the hypocrosy in that?

If you made no effort to make me feel part of your guild and welcomed and encouraged my participation why are you suprised I left?

I have run guilds,, Players leave all the time.. I never whispered a player after the guild quit to find out why, about the most I did was ask in guidl chat if there were any problems that might be brewing , that I needed to address
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90 Draenei Priest
17540
Ssinfull hit the nail on the head. If guild leaders aren't taking the time and putting in the effort to get to know their members, then why are they surprised when those members leave?

I know the people in my guild. I know their names, their ages, what they do for a living. I take an interest in them as people, not just as characters in a video game. I interact with them. I've formed relationships, however small, with each person in my guild. I respect them. And because of this, they feel at home. When real life forces them into different schedules and they must either stop playing, or find somewhere else that matches their times, they always let me know what's going on.

If guild leaders treat their members as nothing more than XP batteries, farmers, or a numbers boost, then they have absolutely no right to demand an explanation when those people leave. Each one of us is entitled to find a place, a home in this game that feels right. Nobody wants to be another number on a list of names that no one gives a damn about.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Yeah, I think you are over reacting a bit. New guild members don't owe you a life time of loyalty for the privilege of wearing your guild tag. They don't owe you anything. It's good to have people join and check your guild out and good for them to leave if they don't fit with a good impression of the guild so they can give a good report about you when they are talking to their friends (and your prospective members).

I'll admit when I was starting out running a guild I used to take it personally when guild members left. Looking back it was because I was struggling to find members and our guild was small without an established reputation, raid teams or active members. So even though I needed members the most our guild wasn't a good fit for most people.

The best thing to do when people leave though is just to shrug and recruit new people. If you feel the need to say something just say "Good luck in your new guild" and leave it at that.

Up to you if you want to blacklist people who leave the guild. We don't in ours instead our members are free to leave the guild at anytime and welcome to leave alts in the guild or rejoin later (within reason, once a tier is fine once a month is too often). We even had a raider who didn't have a spot leave the guild in t11 and rejoin in t13. He did a good job throughout t13 and now is an officer and raid leads one of our main teams. Just because someone doesn't fit in your guild today doesn't mean they won't be an asset next year.

If it's raiders guild hopping on you though then yeah blacklist them. It's one thing for a casual member to leave to find a raid spot it's another thing for a person with a core spot on a team to bail half way through the tier after we have invested time in gearing him and teaching him the fights
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90 Orc Warrior
14965
I'd have to agree with the OP. All through Cata Things went as expected. Not every new person fit in, some decided to leave, or long term members quit. But it was at a fairly expected rate, and generally people talked to me first and gave me a heads up.

Now my experiences in MoP are far different. People guild hop like crazy and leave for no apparent reason. It's getting to be extremely frustrating.

The vast majority of people who come into my guild I talk to personally for a long time before ever sending out a guild invite. It is common for me to chat with them for an hour before finally sending an invite. Those who I do not chat with are either RL friends of a member and are often extremely casual, or I have my recruiting officer talk to them. While she doesn't spend as long as I do chatting, we both make an obvious effort to engage new people who come into the guild. Time and again though our reward is for people to leave with no notice after a week or two. They get invited to raids, to participate in the guild and instead of doing what normal people do and simply open up a dialogue they guild hop.

The idea that a new member doesn't owe a guild anything is not quite right. In general a guild leader has spent a considerable amount of time and effort to build and maintain their guild. By simply sending out an invite the guild has chosen to incorporate a new recruit into their guild. The guild has now extended itself and gotten behind the new person, even if only in a small way at first (Many guilds even do it in large ways). It would be nice if people recognized this and respected it the guild for doing it. And if they honestly don't enjoy their time and want to move on I bet nearly any Guild Leader would like the courtesy of a heads up.

In addition many times a person is brought in to fill a specific raid or RBG spot. Once this is done a person expects that spot to be there when raid time comes. If that spot was filled by some random person on a whim, they would get annoyed as expected. So why is it that when a person who may have a spot reserved for them leaves a guild it's unreasonable to expect a heads up or a even a few days heads up?
Edited by Slatch on 12/13/2012 4:10 AM PST
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90 Human Warrior
16635
I have seen so much lack of decisiveness out of players through my guild in the form of new recruits. It seems like they hit and run and there is no reasonable explanation for this erratic behavior.

Do people not realize that this is a people oriented game?

I am making notes of all toons/people who pull toons/themselves without warning or discussion of how come or why.

This indicates to me there are many people who do not care of integrity, because they can remain cloaked anonymous after such actions. What is the solution? I am not sure but I think its time to start tracking toons/people for that type of behavior in a similar fashion to a work/employment record.

I know this is a game, but in many ways it is real person interaction. I put a lot of effort into building a positive attitude in my guild and it takes a lot of effort to keep things in line. Thought on starting a thread based on this topic is where I am now to track this for other Guild masters and weed out that kind of behavior.


This is so open its almost impossible to have a realistic discussion. When you talk about erratic behavior are you talking about people who put up a good front to get in a guild then rob the bank blind and leave? People who speak in ways in /gchat you disagree with? Maybe people who agree to join a raid team then don't show up or quit the guild?

Each of those descriptions of 'erratic' is worthy of its own discussion and each discussion will go a completely different way.

However, there is 1 common thread thru every single one of those: you and your guild.

It may be that a person joins, find the community or raid scene/rbg team is not whats promised and leaves. It may be that you take anybody willy-nilly with very little work to find out about who you are inviting so you get trolls. It may even be 1 person on multiple alts hitting you 3 or 4 times.

Or it maybe that expectations of guild behavior are not properly set or actually enforced. No matter what, you as a gm have a lot of control over what happens in your guild. You may not be able to control a specific event because a jerk will be a jerk no matter what. But you can control if those people even get the opportunity.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
6780
The truth (IMO) is that the world is full of flaky people.
In addition for many people this is a game, and as such they are not looking to be tied down in any way at all and only want to do what they want to do and when they want to do it. That is how they like it, and really though that can be frustrating it is also not surprising and perhaps even understandable.

The real trick is that for some people they want more than that, and then it becomes a challenge to find like minded AND like committed people. I say committed because saying something is only that, actions are what is real, and are more effort to do.

The first step is to determine what the guild is about and what it is going to do. If the goal of the guild is say to be friendly, that really does not require people to commit to the guild long term, nice but not a requirement. If the goal of the guild is to raid beyond LFR then that raises the requirement for commitment.

Lastly, I will say that there are normally on most servers, too many guilds. Too many people are looking to find others to join their guild. There are typically many guilds that are looking for people to act as officer or supporters for their guild. Finding and groups with a few like minded and committed people increases the attraction of more people like that. Often people will put in 10 times the effort to support 'their' guild, versus putting in say 4 times the effort in support of a guild.
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90 Orc Warrior
14965
Subrosian I came in to share my viewpoint on the differences I've had between Cata and MoP. Your post doesn't even address this idea, which was the fundamental idea of my post. I do things very similarly now as I did through Cata, but I have found my server's community to behave differently. Rather than aim to insult, could we further explore this issue? If you have not found this to be an issue on your server or with you guild than perhaps you are in a fantastic spot and can offer no contributing information?

12/13/2012 07:41 AMPosted by Subrosian
Something is fundamentally wrong / being done wrong in your guild if you are consistently running into issues with players flaking.


Seems to highlight that you didn't fully understand my point. The OP started this idea, I just expanded on it. Why do some guild leaders find different behavior now as opposed to last expansion? Are guild expectations changing? Are WoW demographics changing?

12/13/2012 07:41 AMPosted by Subrosian
I could point at your progression level, or the completely inconsistent gemming / gearing / reforging of your members, but to be frank, that alone is probably only indicative of larger problems in raid leadership. The one ~ two week time is about the time it would take someone to find a new raid, which means they're coming in, seeing big issues, and starting to look for another guild.


While first insulting and then making assumptions is fun for some people, it is not productive at all nor does it seek to explore what the OP started with. If you have something constructive to say I'd love to hear it!

That's absolutely bogus.

Sending out a guild invite is not a significant investment in a player.


Don't over exaggerate what I was saying. Picking and choosing what to quote to satisfy your point doesn't make your point suddenly valid. I also said "even if only in a small way at first". I don't know how you drew the conclusion of "significant" from the word "small". I was merely pointing out that both sides of a guild invite should show a little respect and that often more is expected out of one side than the other. It really wasn't a huge thing, just an observation I had :)

12/13/2012 07:41 AMPosted by Subrosian
Ask yourself what you're doing that makes the person uncomfortable.


I frequently self reflect in order to improve how I run the guild. I also ask others, including new recruits, what they think and how I could improve. Being a guild leader is a case of always seeking to improve I've found.

12/13/2012 07:41 AMPosted by Subrosian
If your guild's ability to raid depends on a TRIAL showing up to raid, then you have significant recruiting issues. If having 20% of your raiders miss a raid night causes you to have to cancel, then you have roster problems and need to make changes.


That I have roster problems is not news to me, and I pretty much said the same thing in my post anyways. I don't know the reason for you pointing it out again.
I have talked to many other guild leaders from previously successful guilds on my server. Many of them agree with me that there are currently slim picking for recruitment. Maybe it's a result of a shrinking server population without a decrease in guilds? It is actually fairly common on my server for raid teams to not have many extra players :(
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90 Draenei Priest
17540
12/13/2012 04:09 AMPosted by Slatch
The idea that a new member doesn't owe a guild anything is not quite right. In general a guild leader has spent a considerable amount of time and effort to build and maintain their guild. By simply sending out an invite the guild has chosen to incorporate a new recruit into their guild. The guild has now extended itself and gotten behind the new person, even if only in a small way at first (Many guilds even do it in large ways). It would be nice if people recognized this and respected it the guild for doing it. And if they honestly don't enjoy their time and want to move on I bet nearly any Guild Leader would like the courtesy of a heads up.


The entire point of a trial period is so that the new member can feel the guild out and the guild can feel out the new member. There have been a handful of times when I've invited someone - who looked great on paper and was a pleasure to talk to during the interview - to join my guild, only to find out a week or so later that they just weren't a good fit. There was no investment on either end and they would leave of their own accord or would be asked to leave. They owed my guild nothing and we owed them nothing.

NO guild leader worth their salt, who has truly "built and maintained" their guild would ever consider inviting any random person and then expecting immediate and continued loyalty and devotion. That type of relationship takes a long time to build and, quite frankly, ANY new recruit who comes in espousing life-long loyalty to my guild is a huge red flag.
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90 Orc Warrior
14965
12/13/2012 10:58 AMPosted by Wrathbrow
Lastly, I will say that there are normally on most servers, too many guilds. Too many people are looking to find others to join their guild. There are typically many guilds that are looking for people to act as officer or supporters for their guild. Finding and groups with a few like minded and committed people increases the attraction of more people like that. Often people will put in 10 times the effort to support 'their' guild, versus putting in say 4 times the effort in support of a guild.


That's a fantastic point, and something I was talking to a guildy about last night. I wonder if some of the servers encountering these problems need to just start consolidating guilds. It's a tough thing to do. To either take in a group of people you may not know well, and who may change your guild in unknown ways, or to allow another guild to take in your members. Either way I think it just leaves many guild leaders feeling uncomfortable when maybe they should be grasping the idea.

I think after finals I'll have a talk with some of the other guild leaders on the server and see what they have to say about the idea. Thanks for a productive comment Wrathbrow!
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90 Orc Warrior
14965
Solaeris: Wasn't meant for you originally, but just to highlight I really didn't mean that recruits owed a new guild some crazy loyalty.

12/13/2012 11:15 AMPosted by Slatch
Don't over exaggerate what I was saying. Picking and choosing what to quote to satisfy your point doesn't make your point suddenly valid. I also said "even if only in a small way at first". I don't know how you drew the conclusion of "significant" from the word "small". I was merely pointing out that both sides of a guild invite should show a little respect and that often more is expected out of one side than the other. It really wasn't a huge thing, just an observation I had :)
Edited by Slatch on 12/13/2012 11:26 AM PST
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90 Draenei Priest
17345
12/12/2012 04:37 PMPosted by Vandvia
I put a lot of effort into building a positive attitude in my guild and it takes a lot of effort to keep things in line. Thought on starting a thread based on this topic is where I am now to track this for other Guild masters and weed out that kind of behavior.


I've read many of the posts here and I have to agree...people are "flaky". That doesn't necessarily mean they lack integrity. It could be that your guild doesn't have what they are looking for, and that is ok. We, as GL's, don't "need" to know the why's although we may want to.

Before I go much farther into this, I'd ask to know a bit more about your guild. What kind of guild are you running, or trying to build? What is the overall atmosphere? What type of community culture do you promote?

You state that you put a lot of effort into building a "positive attitude" and "keeping things in-line" but what does that mean exactly?

There is a vast expanse of people who play our game. Those people have different ideas about what makes the game fun. They have different goals. They play at different levels. Where is your guild in that expanse? What kind of player do you seek out when you recruit? What are your recruiting practices?

While I agree with many that sometimes the simplest answer fits the best and that answer simply is...People are flaky, I must say that Sub has a point about the leadership of guilds being a root cause in the "revolving door".

It may not be that the guild has poor leadership, necessarily. It could, more simply, be that the leadership is recruiting the wrong people for the guild they are trying to build.

I will say, however, after nearly 5 years of running a guild that you need to "grow thick skin", for lack of a better way to say it, when it comes to players who come and go. You can't make everyone happy all of the time nor can you expect a recruit to stay if your guild isn't giving them what they want in game. Knowing the "why's" won't change either of those things nor will it keep either of those things from happening. And, quite frankly, the "why's" just don't really matter that much especially if you're talking about players who joined less than a month ago and are now moving on.

If all of a sudden you had a "revolving door" of long-standing members...THAT would be something worth looking in to.

Raiding guilds and PvP guilds tend to expect the "trial period" much more so than social guilds or family oriented guilds, but it happens in all types. Your recruits are "trialing" your guild just as much, possibly even to a greater extent, as you are "trialing" them.
Edited by Malorey on 12/13/2012 11:53 AM PST
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90 Human Warrior
16635
12/13/2012 11:15 AMPosted by Slatch
While first insulting and then making assumptions is fun for some people, it is not productive at all nor does it seek to explore what the OP started with. If you have something constructive to say I'd love to hear it!


Actually, if you really read what subrosian wrote, there is a lot of constructive points. They may not be points you like or like hearing but that does not make them unconstructive. And Subrosian is talking directly to the the points the OP is making.

In a guild where there is a constant turn over of people after 1-2 weeks, the problem is most likely not the new people who join and leave. The problem is most likely the guild, its members or its leadership (or all 3 of them).

If you're guild fits the mold, so be it. You have to deal with it. All subrosian did was point out many factors he saw looking over your guild roster and toon preparation that may contribute to the turn over. You can rant and rave at Sub all you want and ignore his suggestions. Or you can take heed of the red flags sub pointed out (that prospective members will see) and effect some changes.
Edited by Khahan on 12/13/2012 11:56 AM PST
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90 Orc Warrior
14965
I do not run a heroic progression guild and many of the people on the roster do not log out in their raid specs or gear often either, myself included. I understood Sub's points, they just don't apply in all the ways some may think. That's why it's not particularly constructive to me. I have raided progression raiding before and I know what he is saying applies 100% to it. Character audits can be extremely helpful in nit picking a raid group and maximizing their output. However in a casual guild it can also have the effect of annoying people if it is done too much. Progression oriented raiders sign on to being nit picked, casuals generally do not. Of course that doesn't mean let raiders do whatever they want, but there is a balance somewhere in there.

However that aside neither of you have shed any light on what I started with:

12/13/2012 04:09 AMPosted by Slatch
Now my experiences in MoP are far different. People guild hop like crazy and leave for no apparent reason. It's getting to be extremely frustrating.


Why did I see a change from one expansion to another? The amount of min/maxing is similar to before. The attitude and policies of the guild are similar. Did I change without realizing it? Has community expectations slowly changed, and I only realized it with MoP? Was the way the guild was run wrong before and I just got lucky before? Or is there a link between the OP and my own experiences?
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90 Orc Warrior
14965
12/13/2012 12:05 PMPosted by Subrosian
There was little culling pressure on guilds during the last half of Cataclysm. It has been a year since difficult content was on the server.


I also was around for tier 11 and 12, why did you only apply tier 13?

12/13/2012 12:05 PMPosted by Subrosian
This is constructive. It's not sugar-coated, because frankly if you want to fix the problems you MUST address guild issues.


It's true there isn't a sugar coating which is fine. Constructive? No. Saying we aren't progressed far is not constructive. That's a simple fact that anyone can know. Something constructive seeks to find a solution. Pointing out a problem is not a solution, it may be the first step towards finding a solution, but a problem is not a solution. Saying something is wrong is not constructive, finding how to fix it is constructive.

Wrathbrow on the other hand had something constructive to say and I'll be happy to explore it more with the other guild leaders I know.
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90 Draenei Priest
17345
However that aside neither of you have shed any light on what I started with:

Now my experiences in MoP are far different. People guild hop like crazy and leave for no apparent reason. It's getting to be extremely frustrating.


Why did I see a change from one expansion to another? The amount of min/maxing is similar to before. The attitude and policies of the guild are similar. Did I change without realizing it? Has community expectations slowly changed, and I only realized it with MoP? Was the way the guild was run wrong before and I just got lucky before? Or is there a link between the OP and my own experiences?


I may be (probably am, frankly) way off base here, but this is my take on the issue of "change in players from Cata to Mists"...

"Guild Hopping" was very prevalent in TBC and Wrath (possibly in Vanilla also, but I didn't play until just before TBC released on anything more than a completely "log in once in a while" type casual basis). It was only with the implementation of Guild Perks that players began staying in guilds they were not really happy in because of the loss of reputation and belief that the perks would also be lost of the reputation would be too hard to get back if they moved to another guild.

Unfortunately for many guilds most of the "important" perks are now gone. Things like HGWT, extended time on Cauldron flasks and feasts that could only be acquired after meeting a certain reputation requirement and/or guild wide achievement are now gone. Guild Reputation also comes much faster today since the daily cap was removed and it is easily gained even with low level characters.

Players are now learning that staying in a guild they are unhappy in simply because of the "fear" of losing reputation and perks is, well...ridiculous.

The problems within the guild or leadership structure that are causing a "revolving door" today were there in Cata. The players were just "brain washed" into thinking unimportant things were actually important by hard to gain reputation and perks they felt like they worked hard to achieve for the guild and thought they couldn't loose or would be difficult to get back.
Edited by Malorey on 12/13/2012 12:46 PM PST
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