Playing a Mage is no longer fun

90 Gnome Mage
17060
12/13/2012 07:48 AMPosted by Oaklander
Well, how long should they have left fire mages at a level 20% higher than the next highest dps class? The entire raid progression? ANd if so, how do you explain this to other dps classes that are excluded by the top end guilds in favor of strong dps from the fire spec? I dont like nerfs, but this one had to drop when it did or it would have hurt other dps specs tremendously through this raid tier. I understand that the timing sucks from a fire mage's perspective...frankly, there is never a GOOD time for being nerfed, lol...but this nerf had to fall when it did to balance a glaring dps outlier.


1) Well there is a good time and that is at the start of a raid tier.
2) aff warlocks have been on top aliong with mages too and they are unaffected.
3) Mages were NOT 20% higher so that is not correct...based of 10 man top 100 parses
aff warlocks/shadow priests/fire mages were 1-2-3,
Now, its affwarlocks/shadow priests/arcane mages

Fire mages dropped from top 3 to middle of the pack.

So by using your dps outlier argument, aff locks and shadow priests should be nerfed too.
Also, people don't sit out of raids, they reroll to top performing classes/specs. So the dps
provided by the player does not change that much.

This bring me to the final point is that the nerf did not affect dps of players so much as it decreased some of these player fun factor. Fire is fun...arcane is not.

This was the hidden nerf. yeah I could play another class/spec or even game for that matter
but that does not change my stated opinion that Fire is fun...arcane is not.
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34 Goblin Hunter
7155
Someone call a Waaaaambulance. This OP's e-peen is injured, and needs attention.
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We honestly wouldn't be complaining as much if

1. It had been on the PTR for testing
2. It had not been such a knee jerk reaction
3. Frost and Arcane were as compelling or entertaining (subjectivity aside)
4. See #1 & 2, and add that switching to Arcane (Mastery) or Frost (Haste) is difficult when you poured your entire item budget into Crit Rating, thereby severely depreciating your usefulness in yet another spec, and reforge hardly band-aids the situation.

The bottomline, this was a poorly thoughtout nerf.

It should be heavily scrutinized, and fixed in 5.2 by changing how CM works overall for scaling purposes.

EDIT: Also, notice how we're only complaining about Critical Mass 90-ish % of the time.
Edited by Seebach on 12/13/2012 11:37 AM PST
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69 Worgen Warrior
0
12/13/2012 09:30 AMPosted by Floppey
Well, how long should they have left fire mages at a level 20% higher than the next highest dps class? The entire raid progression? ANd if so, how do you explain this to other dps classes that are excluded by the top end guilds in favor of strong dps from the fire spec? I dont like nerfs, but this one had to drop when it did or it would have hurt other dps specs tremendously through this raid tier. I understand that the timing sucks from a fire mage's perspective...frankly, there is never a GOOD time for being nerfed, lol...but this nerf had to fall when it did to balance a glaring dps outlier.


1) Well there is a good time and that is at the start of a raid tier.
2) aff warlocks have been on top aliong with mages too and they are unaffected.
3) Mages were NOT 20% higher so that is not correct...based of 10 man top 100 parses
aff warlocks/shadow priests/fire mages were 1-2-3,
Now, its affwarlocks/shadow priests/arcane mages

Fire mages dropped from top 3 to middle of the pack.

So by using your dps outlier argument, aff locks and shadow priests should be nerfed too.
Also, people don't sit out of raids, they reroll to top performing classes/specs. So the dps
provided by the player does not change that much.

This bring me to the final point is that the nerf did not affect dps of players so much as it decreased some of these player fun factor. Fire is fun...arcane is not.

This was the hidden nerf. yeah I could play another class/spec or even game for that matter
but that does not change my stated opinion that Fire is fun...arcane is not.

You are right. Mages were no better than spriests and aff locks...its just that Blizzard has suddenly decided that they hate fire mages and love aff locks and spriests. so they only nerfed fire mages....

I recall seeing parses showing mages across the board at the top of every fight and by a 20% margin and this was posted less than one week ago. I admit I cannot find it now, but I will and I will post it. Fire mages were ahead of spriests and aff locks by a wide margin whether you wish to acknowledge it or not. Blizzard nerfed fire mages because their numbers AND ours showed that they were a statistical outlier.
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90 Human Mage
16710
12/13/2012 09:30 AMPosted by Floppey
1) Well there is a good time and that is at the start of a raid tier.

Although its important that adjustments are made when necessary, it is certanly best if they avoid making big ones in mid Tier. They could've simply toned down Fire to pre 5.1 lvls or even a little lower, instead of throwing it down the pit.

3) Mages were NOT 20% higher so that is not correct...based of 10 man top 100 parses
aff warlocks/shadow priests/fire mages were 1-2-3,
Now, its affwarlocks/shadow priests/arcane mages

20% or not, Fire was WAY ABOVE other specs after 5.1 hit. It was OP and needed to be nerfed.
It certanly wasn't that good before 5.1.

12/13/2012 11:43 AMPosted by Oaklander
I recall seeing parses showing mages across the board at the top of every fight and by a 20% margin and this was posted less than one week ago. I admit I cannot find it now, but I will and I will post it. Fire mages were ahead of spriests and aff locks by a wide margin whether you wish to acknowledge it or not. Blizzard nerfed fire mages because their numbers AND ours showed that they were a statistical outlier.

Fire was doing quite well before before 5.1, being Top 3 in the majority of the fights. Also, it is important to mention that Fire was slowly climbing up every week as player gear improved, since it ouscaled other specs. If left alone Fire was likely going to be well above other specs on WoL by the time 5.2 hit. (Yet not even close to the number seen after the 5.1 buff)

The 20% margin thing only happened in 5.1, when Blizzard added a massive (and totally not needed) buff to Combustion.
It lasted 4 days only, enough time for WoL to be filled with thousands of parses showing Fire mages outDPSing other specs by alot in almost every fight.

12/13/2012 09:30 AMPosted by Floppey
2) aff warlocks have been on top aliong with mages too and they are unaffected.

12/13/2012 09:30 AMPosted by Floppey
So by using your dps outlier argument, aff locks and shadow priests should be nerfed too.

Affliction probably should, a little. Contrary to Fire that just caught up once people start to get some gear, Affliction was doing quite well from the start, and is quite above other specs in many of the fights.

Also, if Blizzard didn't like that 80% of the raiding mage population was playing Fire, and made sure to nerf it to a level many mages would move to the recently buffed Arcane, the same could be applied to Warlocks. Affiction is doing so well that the great majority is playing the spec.

EDIT: Also, notice how we're only complaining about Critical Mass 90-ish % of the time.

A nerf to Critical Mass was necessary. MoP should never hit Live with the .5 multiplier on CM, it was obvioulsy going to cause scaling issues down the road.

Let me try to explaing it in more details:
CM was added early in the MoP beta to address a couple issues:
- Make sure crit was the most valuable secondary stat for Fire. (Haste was just as good, and sometimes even better than crit throughout Cata)
- Provide the base crit for the spec to function and perform well at low lvl gear. (Fire lost more than 10% base crit from Cata to MoP with the changes to Raid Buffs, Prime Glyphs and Talents).

With the .5 multiplier, CM overdid the first goal, while didn’t manage to address the second issue well enough. It made Fire perform poorly in starter gear, greatly improve as ilvl goes up, and become OP at some point during the next tiers (maybe even by the end of this tier now that we can upgrade our gear with VPs).

Initially in the Beta, CM multiplier was .3. Then it was increased to .5. This should never have happened. Instead, some base crit should've been added.

The hotfix addressed the scaling issue. Unfortunately, we didn’t get the base crit we needed.
Edited by Faier on 12/13/2012 10:08 PM PST
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90 Human Mage
16710
This bring me to the final point is that the nerf did not affect dps of players so much as it decreased some of these player fun factor. Fire is fun...arcane is not.

Yes, this is something most non-mages seem unable to understand.
It's not only about the DPS. Well geared mages lost about 8% crit with the Critical Mass nerf. Non-geared mages lost a bit less, but were already in a dire situation as I mentioned above. The hotfix resulted in a much lower frequency in Heating Up and Pyroblast procs, making the spec quite dull and boring to play (starting a fight with 15-20 sec of just spamming Fireball and refreshing LB, with similar events repeating throughout the fight IS NOT FUN). It is much harder to get decent/good Combustions now, making it even more frustrating.

It was NOT the average DPS that "killed" the spec, it was the FUN factor being taken away that did it.

And if before the hotfix Fire already was quite boring to play in starter gear as it didn't have the necessary crit to make it fun, imagine how it is now. I am fortunate enough to not have to experience it.

12/13/2012 11:35 AMPosted by Seebach
The bottomline, this was a poorly thoughtout nerf.

It certanly was. =(

They could have reduced Critical Mass a little to solve the scaling issue;
Added some base crit to compensate for the loss of crit;
And then reduce the DMG of spells such as Pyroblast;

Getting Fire to about the same DPS it is doing now, without destroying the FUN.
Edited by Faier on 12/13/2012 10:06 PM PST
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90 Undead Mage
11870
A nerf to Critical Mass was necessary. MoP should never hit Live with the .5 multiplier on CM, it was obvioulsy going to cause scaling issues down the road.

Let me try to explaing it in more details:
CM was added early in the MoP beta to address a couple issues:
- Make sure crit was the most valuable secondary stat for Fire. (Haste was just as good, and sometimes even better than crit throughout Cata)
- Provide the base crit for the spec to function and perform well at low lvl gear. (Fire lost more than 10% base crit from Cata to MoP with the changes to Raid Buffs, Prime Glyphs and Talents).

With the .5 multiplier, CM overdid the first goal, while didn’t manage to address the second issue well enough. It made Fire perform poorly in starter gear, greatly improve as ilvl goes up, and become OP at some point during the next tiers (maybe even by the end of this tier now that we can upgrade our gear with VPs).

Initially in the Beta, CM multiplier was .3. Then it was increased to .5. This should never have happened. Instead, some base crit should've been added.

The hotfix addressed the scaling issue. Unfortunately, we didn’t get the base crit we needed.


Off Topic:

I strongly disagree that a CM nerf is the way to address scaling. The problem behind fire is not CM, it is the spell power multipliers on our 2 core spells: Pyro and Fireball at 220% and 150% respectively. If flat multipliers are a scaling issue, why hasn't Fury been touched? They have a 2x multiplier on their main attack. This multiplier is in effect for the exact same reason as CM - its there to smooth out the flow of the spec.

The "problem" we are seeing for right now is that Fire is able to obtain 32% crit (while forsaking all other stats) at around a 496 iLvl. What most people are missing though is that of that 32%, 5 comes from armor, 5 comes from Arcane Int, and about 7-8% comes from int. The remaining 14-15% is coming from gear. Basing the scaling off of Cata gear scaling (same scaling is used in MoP) we can see that you will gain approx. 170% the rating and int on gear going from T11 to T13h. That's basically from beginning of raiding to absolute end of expansion.

Keeping that in mind, you can estimate (fairly accurately) that fire mages will have the following available at "end of expansion":

5% from armor
5% from Arc Int
170% of 8% from int on gear for a total of 13.5%
170% of our rating from gear for a total of 25%

Adding those all up, 5 + 5 + 13.5 + 25 = 48.5% Figuring in the extra hit we'll have between now and the end of MoP, and you can probably bump that up to a flat 50%.

While that is "much" higher than our current 32%, you also must remember that gems and enchants don't scale. They are a larger proportion of your stats at the beginning of an expac than they are at the end.

So, looking forward to "end of expac", fire mages will gain in crit, but not anywhere near the 100% crit that people seem to assume we'll be hitting.

Interestingly enough, Spell Power also scales at about the 170% rate. So, that 25k spell power you have now, will be 42.5k at "end of expac". Knowing that Pyro gets 220% of spell power, and fireball gets 150%, can anyone else see the actual "problem" with scaling for fire mages?

On Topic:

Turn off recount. Take your favorite class and go beat on a target dummy. Is your class "fun" to play? Do you feel in control of your rotation? Do you feel like you are able to perform within the confines of your spec's intended design? This is setting all DPS aside - you're not even looking at the numbers. Just, how it feels.

The CM nerf made fire feel like you have less control of your rotation. It made it feel like we aren't able to play within the confines of the spec's design (fireball spam is not the intended design of fire). Because of these, fire is now "less fun".

Nerfing CM to fix some perceived future scaling issue is incredibly punitive to the vast majority of the player base. I am #674 for mages in the US (in terms of gear), yet I can tell the difference in how the spec plays post CM nerf. We are told "it gets better at higher levels of gear". Yet, there are only 673 mages with better gear than me in the entire US. With tens of thousands of mages raiding as fire every week, how can we say that it is acceptable for only the top 1% (or less) of fire mages (gear wise) to have a spec that is enjoyable to play - that flows and feels like a completed spec?

Also, I feel compelled to comment on this:

"Combustion needed a nerf"

Why? It is fire's *only* dps CD. The only one. It adds damage in the form of a dot. However, no other class has to jump through so many hoops to use their dps CD. It is also the only DPS CD that can have a wildly different impact on your "burst" based not only on your skill with the spec, but also luck, and also on your ability to use add-ons effectively.
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90 Gnome Mage
6870
12/13/2012 06:29 AMPosted by Oaklander
VERY quickly in response to the whining


Consider not responding calling people who post whining. It simply distracts from any good point you or others make.

The raidbot parses show fire is now at the low end of all of the pact for specs and arcane is at the high end. That has an impact on people who are raiding and working towards progressing on killing bosses.
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90 Draenei Mage
17305
12/13/2012 04:36 AMPosted by Deathcoil
Aitheist you could bind Arcane blast, Scorch, Arcane Blast, Scorch, (rinse repeat) Then place face on the keyboard and roll.


You had top 50s with scorch in your rotation?


As arcane you try to NEVER clear your AB stacks, ever. This means by not using Arcane Barrage if at all possible. You gain regen time a few ways: by casting Arcane Missiles, refresh your bomb spell, refreshing rune of power, and casting Scorch.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-fjhcud3bdeywyheb/details/18/?s=6211&e=7061

Click on "Damage by Spell." See that spell next to the red icon in all the Chinese? That's Scorch. He used it 58 times. The mage in that parse cast Arcane Barrage two times in 14 minutes.

And that's the #1 arcane mage parse for 25H Grand Empress Sheek'zeer.
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90 Goblin Warlock
7555
12/13/2012 07:48 AMPosted by Oaklander
Well, how long should they have left fire mages at a level 20% higher than the next highest dps class?

The issue isn't that mages were nerfed at all. The spec was too high, its damage needed to come down a bit.

The larger problem is the direction these nerfs took and the way they impact the flow of the spec.

You can nerf a spec without altering the flow of it or crippling positive player feedback like this change did.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16170
But why is this all of a sudden news? Classes are in constant flux as to which of their specs are top damage. The fun factor i feel is more of a cop out to your preferred spec no longer being on top. Would you honestly had been content if critical mass and its ability to influence your procs remained the same but the damage coefficients had been altered so your damage dropped to the bottom 3 specs?
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90 Worgen Mage
16675
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
WAAAAAAAAAAH
WAAH WAAH WAAAAAAAH
It was partially reverted. Sorry you don't get to be #1 for a quarter of the effort the rest of your raid puts out.


lolimmapostonalevel1andtrytobeclever.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
10960
I had hope when I read the title but then the OP ruined it by complaining about spec vs spec and *cry* over nerfs.

When is someone going to point out that the Invocation and Rune of Power talents are the problem in terms of making the mage play style tedious. You either have to stand still and re-cast a rune on the ground any time you move or suffer 5 seconds of down time every 40 seconds. I don't even care if the overall change equated to a slight damage nerf I would love for those talents to get removed/changed.
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I had hope when I read the title but then the OP ruined it by complaining about spec vs spec and *cry* over nerfs.

When is someone going to point out that the Invocation and Rune of Power talents are the problem in terms of making the mage play style tedious. You either have to stand still and re-cast a rune on the ground any time you move or suffer 5 seconds of down time every 40 seconds. I don't even care if the overall change equated to a slight damage nerf I would love for those talents to get removed/changed.


Mages have been complaining about those talents since beta with little or no response from Blizzard so...

I agree that the reduction in procs leaves fire less fun to play.
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90 Undead Warlock
6970
Well, are you still playing your mage, even though it's not fun anymore? And if you are, why?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
5620
We had a frost mage in our raid when fire was op and no one complained. The that you are saying fire is "less fun" when the rotation is the same means that your idea of fun is doing top dps even when your raid outgears/outplays you.
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90 Goblin Warlock
7555
12/14/2012 02:56 PMPosted by Turmoyl
The that you are saying fire is "less fun" when the rotation is the same


The rotation isn't the same though. Nerfing the crit multiplier means a lot more time spent playing with only one button.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
0
12/13/2012 11:43 AMPosted by Oaklander
I recall seeing parses showing mages across the board at the top of every fight and by a 20% margin and this was posted less than one week ago.


Less than a week ago?

Sure buddy.
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90 Goblin Warlock
16125
We honestly wouldn't be complaining as much if

1. It had been on the PTR for testing
2. It had not been such a knee jerk reaction
3. Frost and Arcane were as compelling or entertaining (subjectivity aside)
4. See #1 & 2, and add that switching to Arcane (Mastery) or Frost (Haste) is difficult when you poured your entire item budget into Crit Rating, thereby severely depreciating your usefulness in yet another spec, and reforge hardly band-aids the situation.

The bottomline, this was a poorly thoughtout nerf.

It should be heavily scrutinized, and fixed in 5.2 by changing how CM works overall for scaling purposes.

EDIT: Also, notice how we're only complaining about Critical Mass 90-ish % of the time.


PTR is not for numbers changes. They tried mechanical changes and mages cried. Their back up was ready.
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