Tier 14 Progression

90 Pandaren Monk
0
Disclaimer:
I am not trying to start any crap
I am not trying to say anyone is better or worse than anyone else
I am only trying to start a dialogue between interested parties to try and come to a mutual understanding.

That being said. This past friday I found myself bored and at work checking up on all of my required reading, mmo-champion, wow forums, etc. When I went to check up on manaflask I found that Method had been crowned the top guild for tier 14.

http://www.manaflask.com/en/article/2115/the-tier-14-king-method-triumphant

Now, being a long time raider I was not at all surprised to see that Method was still held as one of the best groups around, but if I had remembered correctly than Paragon had secured the world first Heroic Sha kill. Wowprogress confirmed my memory in that they had beaten Method by over an hour and a half.

http://www.wowprogress.com/

The crux of this thread, I am sure I do not speak alone in saying that it was bad form for manaflask to release a story such as this without Paragon being given credit where credit was due.

This thread will inevitably become about how 10 man doesn't count and 25 man is all that matters because it requires more complex logistics, and 10 man players will spout off the volatility and loot distribution of 10 mans making them harder.

A few points I would like to bring up:
If 10 man was so much easier than why are only 3 of the top 20 guilds full 10 man?
Perhaps the real injustice here is the imbalance between horde and alliance racials for pve? 6 of the top 20 guilds for this tier are Alliance, with only one of them being in the top 10 at 8th.

TL:DR
Bad form on manaflask for not giving Paragon **credit** for the world first kill.
Assuming ceteris paribus the difficulty variation between 10 and 25 man is negligible at best.
Alliance v. Horde racials seem to be having a great impact on progression and are worth bringing into question.

Discuss
Edited by Frankfu on 12/11/2012 2:00 PM PST
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90 Tauren Death Knight
12465
Might have something to do with One being a 25 man raid guild and the other only a 10. No clue though.
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90 Worgen Warlock
10930
As a 10 man raider myself I can relate to your post. It's kinda !@#$ty of them for doing that, but then again isnt manaflask also affiliated with method? I notice quite a few of method members write their guides. I think it's just them kissing %^-.

I think the raiding community knows that Paragon is the real winner here.
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90 Human Rogue
10960
12/11/2012 11:47 AMPosted by Frankfu
If 10 man was so much easier than why are only 3 of the top 20 guilds full 10 man?


There are not nearly as many 10 mans who put in the same kind of hours these 25s do (methods sha kill day was a 20 hour raid day!). The ones that do are also in the top 20.

12/11/2012 11:47 AMPosted by Frankfu
Bad form on manaflask for not giving Paragon for the world first kill.


They made no mention of the 10 man world firsts, simply said Method got the world first 25. I think from a pure spectator PoV 25 is more interesting to watch and thus it is viewed to be the premier format. When I think of "e-famous" wow players 99.9% of them raid in 25 man guilds.

Harder, easier, etc. can be argued until the cows come home but at the top level 25 man is the most competitive format and this makes for the most interesting race. Sure paragon was the first 10 man but who did they really beat? The next best team didn't get the boss down until 5 days later and it was a 25m that dropped down to 10 for sha.

12/11/2012 01:22 PMPosted by Voltec
I think the raiding community knows that Paragon is the real winner here.


I have nothing but the utmost respect for Dream Paragon and their players but I'd be lying if I said the 10 man race was as interesting to me as the 25m race. The 25m race was tight all the way down the stretch. 10 man wasn't even a race, it was simply 1 team showing just how far superior they where to all the rest at their respective format.
Edited by Ninjablaze on 12/11/2012 1:43 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
0

They made no mention of the 10 man world firsts, simply said Method got the world first 25. .


The title of the article is "The Tier 14 King: Method Triumphant" They spun it in a way to make Method look like the best and made no allusion to any other guilds progress. This was the central problem.

And as far as who did Paragon beat? They beat everyone, plain and simple, they got the first kill regardless of it being 10 or 25 man, they were still first. Don't get me wrong I'm sure there are a lot of guilds out there who are sour now that Paragon is doing 10's, because as long as the community won't lump the two together no one has the chance of besting Paragon again.

The question is, why do we continue to treat the two raid sizes as separate when at this level of raiding the disparity is negligible?
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90 Human Rogue
10960
12/11/2012 02:09 PMPosted by Frankfu
And as far as who did Paragon beat? They beat everyone, plain and simple, they got the first kill regardless of it being 10 or 25 man, they were still first. Don't get me wrong I'm sure there are a lot of guilds out there who are sour now that Paragon is doing 10's, because as long as the community won't lump the two together no one has the chance of besting Paragon again.


It's not the same race and if you ask any top tier raider they will tell you this. As I said before I absolutely respect Dream Paragon as a guild and even respect their decision to go 10 man. I think it takes a lot to hold your own ideals so strongly that you are willing to drop down to a less prestigious format in order to maintain them as opposed to switching the language to English in order to maintain their roster.

Lets be real about why they switched though, it's not that they preferred 10 man to 25 man, its that they did not believe their current 25 man roster was good enough to compete for world firsts anymore.

12/11/2012 02:09 PMPosted by Frankfu
The question is, why do we continue to treat the two raid sizes as separate when at this level of raiding the disparity is negligible?


The general consensus at the top level is that the 2 formats are not comparable. This does not mean there is no disparity between the 2 formats. The fact that Paragon had to drop to 10 man to remain competitive without drastically changing their guilds culture should tell you that.
Edited by Ninjablaze on 12/11/2012 2:18 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
0
Then let's look at why the "general consensus" is that 25 mans are more challenging, because that's what the majority of top raiders decide to do? Well why do they make that change, because there was a time when 25 man raids gave higher ilvl loot.

We have heard time and time again that some fights are just easier on 25 man, and there have been some that are easier on 10 man as well. The ability to gear up your most important raiders first on a 25 man is certainly easier than it would be in a 10 man, and at the top tier of players the logistics of a 25 v. 10 man group is negligible as everyone at those levels know what they are doing anyways.

We need to understand why a situation is as it is before we can try to fix an issue.

And you say that you respect Dream Paragon yet you say the only reason they switched to 10 man was because they didn't feel they were good enough? I certainly don't believe it, what guild on earth mergers with another guild to do content that requires fewer players? It just doesn't line up.
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90 Troll Druid
14070
This thread will inevitably become about how 10 man doesn't count and 25 man is all that matters because it requires more complex logistics, and 10 man players will spout off the volatility and loot distribution of 10 mans making them harder.
This point is true; the reasoning, however, is not.

10 mans don't count, quite simply because people don't count 10 mans. It's not that 25s are harder, or have more logistical hurdles, or more bads to carry, or not enough syrup on their waffles; it's just that, to the people that care about the progression race, the 25 man race is the one that matters.

Unless there's some drastic shift in raid design, and as long as blizzard tries to keep both sizes roughly equal, raiders will always consider the 25 man kill as the deciding kill of which guild is best, even if there are 10 man kills before it.
Edited by Melenkor on 12/11/2012 3:05 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
0
This point is true; the reasoning, however, is not.

10 mans don't count, quite simply because people don't count 10 mans. It's not that 25s are harder, or have more logistical hurdles, or more bads to carry, or not enough syrup on their waffles; it's just that, to the people that care about the progression race, the 25 man race is the one that matters.

Unless there's some drastic shift in raid design, and as long as blizzard tries to keep both sizes roughly equal, raiders will always consider the 25 man kill as the deciding kill of which guild is best, even if there are 10 man kills before it.


The community is wrong in discounting 10 mans. As I said already, the only reason people say 25 man is king is because that's what the players play, and the only reason the players are doing 25 mans is because at one time it offered better rewards. If 10 man's dropped higher ilvl loot then everyone would do 10 mans, it's simple, it's also completely asinine.

I stand by the point that Dream Paragon is the best guild in the world right now as they were the first to get a group of people together and kill Heroic Sha. 10 v 25 man is a non issue, and websites like manaflask going off and claiming a guild that everyone by now knows was 2nd as 1st is ridiculous. You said it yourself, they are equal, and Paragon was there first.
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90 Undead Priest
16470
The very first thing you say:

I am not trying to start any crap
I am not trying to say anyone is better or worse than anyone else


Then you go and say:

12/11/2012 03:51 PMPosted by Frankfu
The community is wrong in discounting 10 mans.


12/11/2012 03:51 PMPosted by Frankfu
I stand by the point that Dream Paragon is the best guild in the world right now as they were the first to get a group of people together and kill Heroic Sha. 10 v 25 man is a non issue, and websites like manaflask going off and claiming a guild that everyone by now knows was 2nd as 1st is ridiculous.


Sounds to me like you are trying to start crap and say that others are in fact better.

P.S.
In the opening Paragraph of the manaflask:
They've come out on top in the tier as a whole and confirmed themselves as the top guild in 25 man raiding.
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90 Undead Priest
16470
12/11/2012 03:51 PMPosted by Frankfu
The community is wrong in discounting 10 mans. As I said already, the only reason people say 25 man is king is because that's what the players play, and the only reason the players are doing 25 mans is because at one time it offered better rewards.


This statement is filled with quite a few inaccuracies.
TRUTH: The majority of players DO NOT play 25mans. 2,653, 25man guilds have a Stone Guard Kill vs. 32,546 10man guilds. That's roughly 79,590 (@ 30 per 25man guild) vs. 390,552 (@12 per 10man guild), or ~5 times as many raiders doing 10mans as 25mans.

TRUTH: 25man raiders do not only raid because it was once the better reward. Me and my guild is the perfect example of that. Every person in our guild is there because they love 25man raiding and the challenge it brings, a real challenge we can all see every tier when we clear both 10 and 25man modes of the content (via alt raids or "cleanup" raids). In fact given the massive loss of active raiders from the end of WotLK to now (When the majority of raiders were 25man raiders), I'd say that many raiders simply choose to quit when they couldn't raid 25man any more (because there has been a loss of over 55,000 25man guilds since then, so because of that, there are now few options for 25man raiders with many servers not even having a viable option.).

TRUTH: You are a 10man lover who is bent out of shape because 25man guilds get the majority of the headlines.
Edited by Poena on 12/11/2012 4:14 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
0
I'm not bent out of shape, I just feel like credit should be given where it is due. Stand up to the facts and tell the truth, don't spin a story to make a group sound better than it is, and there is absolutely no reason why Dream Paragon should not receive as much credit if not more than Method. They were their first, plain and simple.
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90 Orc Hunter
17370
not really sure who paragon was even competing with

such an exciting race to pay attention to
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90 Undead Priest
16470
12/11/2012 04:32 PMPosted by Frankfu
I'm not bent out of shape, I just feel like credit should be given where it is due. Stand up to the facts and tell the truth, don't spin a story to make a group sound better than it is, and there is absolutely no reason why Dream Paragon should not receive as much credit if not more than Method. They were their first, plain and simple.


Credit where credit was due?
http://www.manaflask.com/en/article/2090/terrace-heroic-progress-25-man-top-20-10-man-top-10
http://www.manaflask.com/en/article/2035/paragon-take-the-10-man-crown-interview-with-guildmaster

Grats to them being first. They knew they couldn't get enough quality players that speak their language (Finnish?), and so they simplified their raid to a 10man format. Credit was given to Paragon for their first kill by many sources, but Manaflask choose to write about 25mans and said so in the opening paragraph. The article was about 25mans and if you want to champion 10mans, feel free to start your own website blog, but to Manaflask and others, the interesting reporting lays with 25man content.

When the top 10man guild would rather do 25mans, doesn't it seem obvious as to why reporting tends to favor 25mans?

A couple key quotes from Paragon themselves:
A lot easier to manage 10 people. It was nice too that we didn't have to change setups/players etc. for every boss, in the end I would prefer 25man if we could have 25 players with similar skill who put in the same effort.


Why do you think you had (and still have) such a huge lead over everyone else in the 10 man field?

I have no idea why the other 10man guilds are struggling so hard, I'm quite sure we had a bit of a gear advantage, and also we have the experience and put in the effort required.


Are the bosses strategy-intensive or is it just pure skill on the part of your players that made you finish so quickly?

For a couple of the bosses, the last one, for example, we had some nice tactics. In general individual skill plays a bigger difference in 10man than in 25man.


This last quote is the one I am going to choose to focus on. Individual skill is more important in 10mans than in 25s. This is the primary reason I think 25's draw more interest. 25s aren't generally hard because of the individual requirements, they are hard because it's hard to coordinate a team of that size, and in an MMO what I hope matters more to people is the group than the individual (to me that's all I personally care about and if I had my way I would never do anything in WoW but raid 25s).
Edited by Poena on 12/11/2012 4:51 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8185
25 man is the only competitive bracket is why.

It's like crediting the WNBA with the best basketball players, when in reality they may have them, but in actuality no one really cares.

If you think 10 man is competitive you are SADLY mistaken.. 10 man comes down to two things:

1) Which guild has a more stacked roster to class stack the fight (2 locks 2 moonkins 10 man for Heroic Will for Paragon)

*2)* Which guild has resources to farm numerous instances on normal 25 man for gear, as a 10 man guild. This makes a HUGE difference... Players in Paragon had an average ilvl of 5-10 higher than any of the raiders in my guild simply because they had cleared 3 MSV 25 mans (3-4 mains per run). They got a huge leg up on gear, and thus demolished the Gara'jal enrage timer, and went 6/6H quite easily week #1 because of it. This extends into more heroic farming which in turn makes Heart easier (numerous members had 2PC normal week #1).
Edited by Misery on 12/11/2012 5:10 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
I am not trying to start any crap
I am not trying to say anyone is better or worse than anyone else


Lol

As a 10 man raider myself I can relate to your post. It's kinda !@#$ty of them for doing that, but then again isnt manaflask also affiliated with method? I notice quite a few of method members write their guides. I think it's just them kissing %^-.

I think the raiding community knows that Paragon is the real winner here.


The site that Method is partnered with is WoWhead. This is also why you'll see MMO-Champ doesn't really like Method - and will instead post Blood Legion's kill videos, because Method's ones now have a 2 sec Wowhead intro.

It's hilarious how much people will fanboy Paragon and make up things.
Edited by Slashlove on 12/11/2012 5:23 PM PST
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90 Worgen Druid
4810
"We also feel 25s are the more interesting format now, but we do not and will never compare 10 to 25 as they are completely different."

-Starym (from Manaflask)

Their site, they can do whatever they like. If YOU don't like it, then give THEM feedback.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
7485
When I go on the frontpage of wowprogress I see

1 DREAM Paragon (10) EU-Lightning's Blade 6/6 (H) 6/6 (H) 4/4 (H) 44968.22
2 Method (25) EU-Twisting Nether 6/6 (H) 6/6 (H) 4/4 (H) 44882.36
3 Blood Legion (25 recruiting) US-Illidan 6/6 (H) 6/6 (H) 4/4 (H) 44769.28

Paragon is ahead of Method by around 80 points, so Paragon is #1.
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90 Worgen Druid
4810
wowprogress is just another opinion that is based on arbitrary numbers (ie. they made them up)

Sure it's going to be fairly accurate, but it doesn't really settle anything when trying to compare between the 2 raid sizes - nothing will - which is why there's 2 world firsts and you're free to pick and choose whichever one you like most =)
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